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Topic: Re: Anduin    Reply to: msg 15733
Posted: July 19, 2000 at 12:31:50: by Dave aka Don Quixote
Snippity Hip
: : : Just my thoughts - I think you could safely say there were a
: : : good half million non Hobbits in Eriador at the time of the
: : : books.

: : I doubt that very much to say the least. Eriador is described
: : as a desolate place by Tolkien. The part which the hobbit
: : travel through is almost completely deserted.
Yes, it is Marshland in part and they deliberately avoid anywhere they may be spotted

: : Breeland was sparsely populated. Only a few villages with a
: : few hundred houses. To the west was lindon with it's ever
: : dwindling population, Dunland was populated by a seemingly
: : primitive people who would not have been very large judging
: : from the number which helped Saruman. Eregion was empty and so
: : was most of the old Arnor. Rivendell didn't have a large
: : population by this time.

Yes Breeland was not heavily populated ITSELF - perhaps 3000 including surrounding farms. But what of offshoot colonies of Breeland that may have been possible? (that also qualifies the statement about no OTHER men having SETTLED dwellings so far west) What makes you say Dunlanders were either a) primitive, or b) unnumerous? They had enough in numbers to overrun Rohan 300 years earlier.....


: I would find it hard to justify an estimate of more than 100,000 people (Elves, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarves) living in Eriador at the time of the War of the Ring, and that is if you include both Dunland and Lindon (neither of which were part of Eriador).

Too few Michael in my opinion, Eriador = 450,000 square miles at a guess (Karen Fonstad) even the most underpopulated areas of the world in medieval times for example supported about 1 person per square mile. Any less and in 1000 years Eriador is in total ruin and incapable of supporting a reunited kingdom.....

: In "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" Tolkien mentioned that there were no other "settled communities" of Men within 100 leagues (about 300 miles, in my opinion, since a league has no fixed distance) of the Shire.

: There were still Men living in Cardolan, but they were very, very few, and probably were mostly hunters and woodsmen living far apart.

: There were also Men living in Eryn Vorn (a forested cape just southwest of the Shire). These were related to the Dunlendings and Breelanders, but their numbers appear to be few. They probably were woodmen, not too friendly to the Dunedain, and most likely never associating with the Elves (of whom they were afraid).

: Aragorn's people lived beyond the Mitheithel, in the lands called the Angle. We don't know how many there were or even how many settlements they had. All the other ancient inhabitants of Eriador had been wiped out in the various wars, or the Great Plague.

Well, I say the following
Hobbits - 200,000
Elves of Lindon - Prob 30-50,000 before the war
Dunedain and followers - 50,000 or so spread across old Arthedain
Dunland - 150 - 200,000
Cardolan - 50,000 spread throughout
Tharbadians - 20,000 up and down the Gwathlo after Tharbad in Ruins
Bree and area - 3,000
That just about gives 1 per square mile, if they live in villages/hamlets of 100 say, then that leaves still an area that is desolate....(one village every 100 square miles) - ten miles between each, anything larger - 300 say and its even more desolate....
Tolkein never says unpopulated, just deserted - difference in semantics here

: I think that Men were reluctant to colonize Eriador after the fall of both Arnor and Angmar because the power of the Elves discouraged non-Edainic peoples from crossing the mountains and because there was no economic or military reason to do so. Sauron wanted to control the passage between Mirkwood and Mordor, so it makes sense for him to establish colonies in the southern part of the Forest (many Easterlings lived in or near southern Mirkwood). And while Gondor's power ran strong, the easy passage to the west -- through Calenardhon -- was blocked. The remnants of the Northmen held the Vales of Anduin for several centuries as well, and when Eorl settled in Calenardhon he undoubtedly prevented any further incursions into the northern vales.

: So the way was blocked. But Orcs, Trolls, and other evil creatures appear to have spread into Eriador on more than one occasion, so it's not like ALL enemies were barred.

Yes, and nothing would take them there but populations sufficient to raid.......
The Greenfields is a fairly minor engagment and only part of a wider invasion...

Don Quixote




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