: : Except that in that in the case of the house of Finarfin, all three, Finrod, Aegnor and Galadriel

: Celebrian

: : don't have children, while Angrod not only has children, he also has *grandchildren*. That's not balanced in my view...

: As did Turgon of the House of Fingolfin.

In both those cases I'm referring to the time before Dagor Bragollach, so as to set a time of reference (I certainly don't want to count all the generations of Numenor as Fingolfian descendants :-)

Ofcourse Celebrian *could* have been born by Galadriel during her time in Doriath - I assumed perhaps incorrectly that she was born during the Second Age. Either way she didn't get married until about 3500 years after her cousin Orodreth had an adult child of his own.

There's something screwy with the generations here... :-)

: : PS2. Which however makes me in turn not like the placing of Finduilas - I feel that there should be no adult great-grandchildren of Finarfin at the time: therefore if I was Tolkien I'd make her Orodreth's younger sister, rather than his daughter - moreover her being the daughter of the king of the hidden kingdom in love with a mortal is perhaps a bit too repetitive of both Idril and Luthien...

: Actually what surprised me is that there weren't more. The generational patterns described by Tolkien in Law and Customs of the Eldar apparently don't apply to the Noldorin royal family.

Frankly, I think they don't apply to pretty much any elven family we've seen. They don't apply to the Noldor, they don't apply to the Sindar (was it Elmo-Galadhon-Galathil-Nimloth ?) they don't apply to Oropher-Thranduil-Legolas, they certainly don't apply to the Half-elven Elrond and his children...

In fact that mention in the Law and Customs that elves usually get married when around 50 doesn't seem to jive with any other text of Tolkien... In all other texts they seem to wait from hundreds to thousands of years...

: : : I think it's key that it passes to the Finarfinian line. Remember that Gil-galad was not just High King of the Noldor; he also had to be able to be High King of the Elves of the West, as reported in LOTR, and have the loyalty of the Sindarin population of Lindon and Eriador during the Second Age. Only a Finarfinian, who were descended from the Telerin royal line through Earwen of Alqualonde could hope to have such loyalty especially since the line of Fingolfin was regarded by the Sindar as having some guilt in the Kinslaying of the Teleri at Alqualonde.

: : Such games with kinship have their value - they are used greatly in the Silmarillion. But sometimes it seems to become a cage rather than a tool. If the Sindar blamed Gil-Galad who was probably no more than a child, or even unborn, at the time of the Kinslaying, then they were *far* too narrowminded for my tastes. After all they don't seem to have hostility for Elrond or Earendil...

: Now you also want to change the Eldar? That's the way they were. Look at Thingol and his attitude towards the Atani. You have to accept their faults

I don't think that the faults of Thingol were necessarily the faults of all Sindar...

: Anyway, probably Elrond's descent from Thingol overrode their descent from Turgon in the hearts and minds of the Sindar. As to Earendil, it probably helped that he married Idril and also wasn't around for that long.

Eureka - have Gil-galad's mother be a Sinda! ;-)

[snip]
: : And finally I feel there's a further balance in that in the second Age there exists one Feanorian (Celebrimbor), one Fingolfian (Gil-Galad)and one Finarfian (Galadriel)...

: Elrond was a Fingolfinian on his Noldorin side.

He was half-elven. He's balanced by half-elven Elros in Numenor and is outside the equation. :-)

: : Well the line of Feanor never got High Kingship either - neither Maedhros nor Feanor seem to have ever been called High King. And rather than having three Fingolfian and one Finarfian High-king I think it's better to have four Fingolfians...

: Feanor was high king, or rather simply King of the Noldor, until he abandoned Fingolfin's host in Aman.

Not really: the Noldor started with two different hosts - IIRC Feanor was considered to be king only by the host that followed him directly. The Noldor were united only when Maedhros accepted Fingolfin as High King...