: : As did Turgon of the House of Fingolfin.

: In both those cases I'm referring to the time before Dagor Bragollach, so as to set a time of reference (I certainly don't want to count all the generations of Numenor as Fingolfian descendants :-)

: Of course Celebrian *could* have been born by Galadriel during her time in Doriath - I assumed perhaps incorrectly that she was born during the Second Age. Either way she didn't get married until about 3500 years after her cousin Orodreth had an adult child of his own.

I was just looking through the dafts of LotR (HoME 6-9) the other day and I recall seeing a reference implying Celebrian was born in SA Eregion, but damned if I can find it now :( (was reasearching something else). It might not be unlikely that she was born in that time, it being a peaceful period of Eldarin expansion. When Amroth was being considered the son of Celeborn and Galadriel did anyone else get the impression that he too was born then? Might be relevant for determining a possible birth period for Celebrian.

: There's something screwy with the generations here... :-)

: : Actually what surprised me is that there weren't more. The generational patterns described by Tolkien in Law and Customs of the Eldar apparently don't apply to the Noldorin royal family.

: Frankly, I think they don't apply to pretty much any elven family we've seen. They don't apply to the Noldor, they don't apply to the Sindar (was it Elmo-Galadhon-Galathil-Nimloth ?) they don't apply to Oropher-Thranduil-Legolas, they certainly don't apply to the Half-elven Elrond and his children...

: In fact that mention in the Law and Customs that elves usually get married when around 50 doesn't seem to jive with any other text of Tolkien... In all other texts they seem to wait from hundreds to thousands of years...

It does not seem to apply to the royals/nobles. What we need to look at is info on the commoners.

: : : : I think it's key that it passes to the Finarfinian line. Remember that Gil-galad was not just High King of the Noldor; he also had to be able to be High King of the Elves of the West, as reported in LOTR, and have the loyalty of the Sindarin population of Lindon and Eriador during the Second Age. Only a Finarfinian, who were descended from the Telerin royal line through Earwen of Alqualonde could hope to have such loyalty especially since the line of Fingolfin was regarded by the Sindar as having some guilt in the Kinslaying of the Teleri at Alqualonde.

: : : Such games with kinship have their value - they are used greatly in the Silmarillion. But sometimes it seems to become a cage rather than a tool. If the Sindar blamed Gil-Galad who was probably no more than a child, or even unborn, at the time of the Kinslaying, then they were *far* too narrowminded for my tastes. After all they don't seem to have hostility for Elrond or Earendil...

According to Grey Annals the major part of the population of all the Noldorin realms was Sindarin. "..though the Sindar were not numerous they much out numbered the hosts of Feanor and Fingolfin... whereby in all the countries save only in Doriath though the princes of the Noldor were the Kings their followers were largely of Sindarin race".

: : Anyway, probably Elrond's descent from Thingol overrode their descent from Turgon in the hearts and minds of the Sindar. As to Earendil, it probably helped that he married Idril and also wasn't around for that long.

*Thats disgusting. Married his own mother.;) *

: Eureka - have Gil-galad's mother be a Sinda! ;-)

She was.

: [snip]
: : : And finally I feel there's a further balance in that in the second Age there exists one Feanorian (Celebrimbor), one Fingolfian (Gil-Galad)and one Finarfian (Galadriel)...

: : Elrond was a Fingolfinian on his Noldorin side.

Maglor is going to be upset that he was forgotten again (ref. to another thread on this sight)

: He was half-elven. He's balanced by half-elven Elros in Numenor and is outside the equation. :-)

: : : Well the line of Feanor never got High Kingship either - neither Maedhros nor Feanor seem to have ever been called High King. And rather than having three Fingolfian and one Finarfian High-king I think it's better to have four Fingolfians...

: : Feanor was high king, or rather simply King of the Noldor, until he abandoned Fingolfin's host in Aman.

: Not really: the Noldor started with two different hosts - IIRC Feanor was considered to be king only by the host that followed him directly. The Noldor were united only when Maedhros accepted Fingolfin as High King...

Is Feanor ever called King, High King? They are references in Grey Annals to the effect of 'after Feanor dies the overlordship passes to Fingolfin' but is he ever actually called King of the Noldor or even (directly) overlord?

Besides Gil-galad should have remained Feanors descendant.;)-