The White Council

Re: About The Powers Of The Rings

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : [[ No, I don't think the Nine and Seven were named after Sauron gave them out because when Sauron made war on Eregion and tortured Celebrimbor, he told Sauron of the Nine and Seven but didn't tell Sauron where were the Three. This leads me to believe that there was a difference between the Nine and the Seven otherwise he would have said the Sixteen Rings. ]]

: : Is there anything to suggest that Celebrimbor called them the 'Nine and Seven'? I think the texts referred to them as the 'Nine and Seven' because that's what they were known as afterwards -- the distinction is there for clarity, not for what Celebrimbor said when he revealed their locations. : If you read the Unfinished Tale, Celebrimbor reveals the Nine to Sauron although the Seven may have been distributed already. He doesn't say Sixteen Rings. Another clue that the Nine were different from the Seven was Elrond's comment that the maker didn't desire strength or domination or "hoarded wealth" but healing, making and understanding, to preserve all thing unstained. From this comment, he distinguishes the difference between the Three from the Seven or Nine. But by saying strength or domination or hoarded wealth, he gives a clue that the Seven and Nine has distinguished qualities. In RotK, the appendix speaks of the Last of the Seven required gold to breed gold which fits into hoarded wealth connection. I also find it interesting that the dragons consume four of the Seven, considering that dragon can be greedy for riches as can Dwarves, there is a connection to the nature of the Seven: hoarded wealth.

: : [[ If the Nine and Seven are not that different then why do you need to give Nine to Men and Seven to Dwarves. Why not give one of the Seven to a Man and a Nine to a Dwarf? Why so specific to a race? ]] : : : : Exactly because Sauron made up his mind to give seven to the Dwarves and nine to Men without making distinctions between them. After he gave them out, he didn't go and swap them. When he saw that Dwarves did not succumb to the rings' power, he tried to regain them. : Then I don't understand why if you think the Nine and Seven are the same that

: : [[ I don't think the Nine and Seven needed perverting. ]]

: : But then why did Sauron pervert them? He knew more about Rings of Power than anyone else in Middle-earth. : If the Nine or Seven were designed for strength or domination or hoarded wealth, they already contain qualities for destruction or potential for evil. I believe even if Sauron didn't have a hand in it, the Seven or Nine would have corrupted the user(although it would have been longer process) It(Seven or Nine) didn't need perverting because all you need to do is influence the user and corrupt his desires. Fulfilled the ego and get gratification is an easy route to take thru war or conguest or riches. Power(in any form) has always been a dangerous affair if not tempered with wisdom.

: Hugh Toner

Fascinating discussion, I broadly agree with the above, given the well known adage that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Whereas both Dwarves and Men both exhibit "historical" traits that lead towards "temptation" (viz: the ruin of Doriath / The treachery of Ulfang etc), the history of the Elves (with the notable exception of the Sons of Feanor - who were fulfilling the obligations of a sworn oath)) shows no sign that the Eldar were ever tempted by either wealth or power, this is possibly why the three were never corrupted - their bearers - Cirdan/Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond were incorruptible. The nine were given to haughty Numenoreans and the seven to avaricious dwarves.

This is all despite the fact that the three were said to be free of taint as they were never sullied by the hand of Sauron. I just think that it was the nature of the races to whom the rings were distributed that allowed Sauron to use the one to bend them to his will. The real fear was that the one would be used to dominate the users of the three.

The one ring seems to have had some kind of "resonating" quality, as well as it's ability to confer power on the user according to his/her stature, that allowed it to overpower the other rings (one ring to rule, one ring to find, one ring to bring and in the darkness bind).