The White Council

Re: A New Look at Bombadil

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : Most of the time all of us argue over what Bombadil is, but their are some interesting questions about him that lead up to the big question, "what is he?".

: : I thought I'd list some and see what you think.

: : 1) Frodo asks Goldberry who Tom is, she correctly responds "he is" because Frodo asks who, not what is Tom. But Goldberry knowing what the true question is expands in a riddle-like fashion. She says he's master of water wood and hill. When Frodo questions if he owns the forest it seems to disturb Goldberry. She says none have ever caught him in these places, she proceeds saying he has NO fear. Then she once again says he's master. This begs the question HOW POWERFUL IS HE?

: : 2) Later Tom says he is the eldest. "Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People came and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves past westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the star when it was fearless-before the Dark Lord came from Outside." This is my opinion is one of the most confusing things Tom says because each little part could mean more than one thing. The trees and river Withywindle and Old Forest probably but who knows. First raindrop and acorn could mean the same or maybe they could be the primeval ones. The Dark Lord could be Morgoth or Sauron and even if you figure out who it was you can't find out which return from the Outside he' talking about. So HOW OLD IS BOMBADIL?

: : 3) Gandalf says, "I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much say to one another." This begs the question WHY IS TOM SO IMPORTANT THAT GANDALF WILL HAVE THE GREATEST TALK OF ALL HIS LIFE WITH HIM? Gandalf is ancient, and older than the world, why would he want to speak to Bombadil so badly. I think this eliminates Bombadil as just some Maiar. I would suggest Bombadil to be Lorien or Irmo but they don't fit the description close enough. I also think this makes Bombadil a heck of a lot more important than we : : all thought.

: : Thanks for your time : : Jon

: : Jon, mate,

: Just because Gandalf feels the need to have a chat with Bombadil does not make him a Valar. In fact, as has been stated before, he *cannot* be a Valar since, none had any effect, nor would set foot on Middle Earth after Valinor was removed from the world. Therefore he *cannot* be either Irmo, Lorien or Aule (which has been suggested before), neither can Goldberry be Yanvanna.

: Nore does Gandalf's *need* to speak to Tom invalidate Tom's (and my belief) potential at being a Maiar, in fact I believe it enforces it. Tom would be one of the last, if not THE last of the Maia resident on Middle Earth apart from Gandalf. It would make sense for Gandalf to want to have a chat with him about old times. They both seemed to have existed before the creation of the world. Tom just seems to be the first of the Ainur to have taken the trip to Middle Earth.

: Tom was a bit of an eccentric to say the least and alwasy talked in riddles, therefore I don't think it does any good to take what he says literally.

: Tom was very powerful, of that there is no doubt. And no single being short of Sauron, with his ring, could take him out. Age - well he was no older than any other Maiar, since they all seem to have come into existance at roughly the same time (along with the Valar - whom it is completely irrational to believe he is older than) - when Eru thought them up.

: Cheers

: : Padster

okay guys, I disagree with both of you. As Jon says, it is important for Gandalf to speak to Bombadill, but does that make him Gandalf's "equal" or does it make Bombadill "powerful"? Note that in Tolkien's books, "power" is not measured like Ad&D. It's not limited to throwing fireballs etc. My personal belief, is that Bombadill is the spirit of Arda itself. He would be the last to fall, because in order to defeat him, you have to enslave MiddleEarth itself. He's eldest, as he is "Gaea" and the freepeople, and "gods" came unto MiddleEarth later..... However, as the freepeople slowly took over MiddleEarth, Bombadill's claim diminished. No longer did he control portions of the world, because they have become the dominion of mankind... The ring having no effect over Bombadill does not mean that he's powerful. I merely means that it is a different kind of power, and is not affected by the corruption of Suron. It's like giving "Gaea" a gun. Even if the spirit of our Earth shot himself, do you think it'll affect him? I don't think do, and so Bombadill is not affected by Sauron's ring either.....

Gandalf's talk to Bombadill could merely be a talk to a being whom he has not seen since the begining of time! Bombadill's "power" does not lie with deeds, and he could not step out of the bounderies that he has set for himself...

Bombadill as a maia does not follow, as Maia do not have the kind if "power" that Bombadill weilds. Even Gandalf could not avert all nine of the Nazgul, yet Oloron was the wisest of maia, and Curunthir was the most powerful, and most adept with craft. Neither Saruman, nor Gandalf could withstand all of the riders though... Bombadill's "power" is more of a passive kind. he controls the "stock and stone" and "master of wood, tree, and hill" yet he cannot use this "power" to any effect..... No Maia has this kind of power, and i doubt that any other child of Illuvitar has this amout of power... We know that the only recorded being with this kind of contro are the Valar, yet they are accounted for, and they agreed never to intervene again, so Bombadill cannot be of any known or recorded race. So what is Bombadill? The spirit of MiddleEarth!

Get back to me.

If anyone has ICQ, my number is #17561302.

Please reply with your ideas...

Gandalf