The White Council

Re: A New Look at Bombadil

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: okay guys, I disagree with both of you. As Jon says, it is important for Gandalf to speak to Bombadill, but does that make him Gandalf's "equal" or does it make Bombadill "powerful"? Note that in Tolkien's books, "power" is not measured like Ad&D. It's not limited to throwing fireballs etc.

Well firstly I wouldn't even dream of associating any of Tolkien's works with AD&D (horrid RPG), but that's not the issue here!

: My personal belief, is that Bombadill is the spirit of Arda itself. He would be the last to fall, because in order to defeat him, you have to enslave MiddleEarth itself. He's eldest, as he is "Gaea" and the freepeople, and "gods" came unto MiddleEarth later.....

As I said in reply to Jon, I do not believe that we should be trying to invent things which happen to fit our own version of how things should be! This is Tolkien's works! I don't recall Tolkien ever mentioning anything which could be associate with Gaia! If Tom is a manifestation of the Earth then that would mean he is a manifestation of the Flame Imperishable , since it resided within the earth and more than anything was the earths spirit (if anything could be), which is just not plausible.

: However, as the freepeople slowly took over MiddleEarth, Bombadill's claim diminished. No longer did he control portions of the world, because they have become the dominion of mankind...

This does not add up! Why is the earth diminished (and therefore in your theory Bombadil himself) just because the Children of Eru (created by Eru's thought and the Flame Imperishable) spread across it. Certainly the Elves would not diminish the Earth, if anything they enhanced it by waking the Ents and maintaining the forests etc, etc.

: The ring having no effect over Bombadill does not mean that he's powerful. I merely means that it is a different kind of power, and is not affected by the corruption of Suron. It's like giving "Gaea" a gun. Even if the spirit of our Earth shot himself, do you think it'll affect him? I don't think do, and so Bombadill is not affected by Sauron's ring either.....

Power is Power, just like Energy is Energy. It may manifest itself differently but in is most pure form its all the same. What your saying just does not make sense in a world as structured as Middle Earth!

: Gandalf's talk to Bombadill could merely be a talk to a being whom he has not seen since the begining of time! Bombadill's "power" does not lie with deeds, and he could not step out of the bounderies that he has set for himself... : Bombadill as a maia does not follow, as Maia do not have the kind if "power" that Bombadill weilds. Even Gandalf could not avert all nine of the Nazgul, yet Oloron was the wisest of maia, and Curunthir was the most powerful, and most adept with craft. : Neither Saruman, nor Gandalf could withstand all of the riders though... : Bombadill's "power" is more of a passive kind. he controls the "stock and stone" and "master of wood, tree, and hill" yet he cannot use this "power" to any effect..... : No Maia has this kind of power, and i doubt that any other child of Illuvitar has this amout of power... : We know that the only recorded being with this kind of contro are the Valar, yet they are accounted for, and they agreed never to intervene again, so Bombadill cannot be of any known or recorded race. So what is Bombadill? The spirit of MiddleEarth! : Get back to me.

Power! Gandalf did not have the power to stand up to the Nazgul as a group because he was restricted by the Valar as to what he could do to aid Middle Earth. Zapping the enemy was not one of these therefore he could not do it. Olorin almost certainly could! Who's to say Bombadil could either. *I* believe he could, but that is immiterial. Bombadil didn't! What he did do was vape a Barrow-wight, which seems to have been a lesser form of undead when compared to a Nazgul. Gandalf was able to defeat, if not stave off the Nazgul, also undead. There's a correlation between the powers of Bombadil and Gandalf.

You say that Bombadils power comes from, or resides in (whatever) the Earth - which is one of the four traditional elements. Balrog's and Arien were Maia (spirits) of Fire, another element - therefore another correlation between Bombadil and other Maia!

: If anyone has ICQ, my number is #17561302.

: Please reply with your ideas...

: Gandalf

Bombadil's a Maia (IMHO) because he fits it and it fits Tolkien's version of the world, if not his opinion. But then again this is only *my* opinion, so see ya.

Cheers

Padster