The White Council

Re: Fonstad's Estimates (was Re: Gondor at the end of the Third Age)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : Absolutely. :-) Overall, it's not bad. It's generally a : : useful distillation, but not Holy Writ. Her tallying of : : numbers involved at the Pelennor -- amply documented, and I : : double-checked some of it -- was what I was using. She also : : does a fairly good job of breaking down timelines, dates and : : distances. Some of the geography, not to mention the : : illustrations and schematics, is a little weaker. It's a useful : : source, so long as its used carefully.

: Her numbers for Gondor are partly made up: 1000 men for Aragorn, 2000 men for Denethor. She also made up the numbers for Minas Morgul (20,000) and the Easterlings (7,000). All these numbers are completely without textual basis.

: : : I would also like to add a piece of information while it is : : : still fresh in my mind from a lecture two hours ago. In the : : : years ~1650 (when Denmark founded a professional army)- : : : ~1720, Denmark, Sweden and Prussia were the three mostly : : : militarised states in Europe in comparison to actual number : : : of inhabitants. The percentage of the population under arms : : : in the Army in Denmark varied between 2- 4% (with a slightly : : : larger navy) in Sweden (with whom we Danes were perpetually : : : at war in this period)it swung between 5 and 10% (the 10% : : : financed by France- Sweden could not afford it on its own) : : : and in Prussia between 5 and 6%. The organisation level of : : : society in these nations at this period (early absolutism) is : : : probably comparable to the Gondorian one (or inferior).

: : Good point.

: Gondor was compared by Tolkien to classical civilizations, so it makes more sense to use those civiliations to estimate its potential capabilities.

: [snip]

: : Rome was clearly the model for Gondor, at least in some : : respects -- particularly in terms of its division and decay. : : Gondor at its peak was likely a notch or two above that of Rome : : in terms of stability, organization, and science, but I think : : much of Roman and Medieval history can still be applied to : : Gondor.

: Although I perceive parallels between Rome and Gondor, Tolkien was more intent on the Egyptian influences he adapted, and other people like to compare Minas Tirith to Byzantium. So I tend to just say "Classical Civilization" and leave it at that. Classical Medieterranean Civilization might be more appropriate. >> The clasical civilisations I know (East and West Rome) probably had a very similar organisation level to Denmark, Sweden and Prussia 1500 years later. In that respect Feudalism was a setback (I just like to add that feudalism was mainly brought about by the chaos following the Muslim, Magyar and, especially, Viking invasions, raids and intrusions between ~800 and 1100)