The White Council

Re: I thought Sauron was the most powerful Maia? (nt)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : The bottom line is that the Valar were sick of saving Middle-earth, In the words of Gandalf to the Hobbits in Homeward Bound "I am not coming to the Shire. You must settle your affairs yourselves: that is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand? My time is over, it is no longer my task to set things right, nor to help folks do so. As for you, my dear friends, you will need no help. You are grown up now. Grown indeed very high; among the great you are, and i have no longer any fear at all for any of you." (Return of the King, Homeward Bound) : : This I believe is one of the most powerful statements of the whole story. It sums up the mission of Istari. To train Middle-earth to fend for itself. That's why the Istari were sent in mortal bodies, that's why they didn't send Eonwe, that's why they didn't come themselves: because they wanted to train Middle-earth. The Istari were restricted so when some of them strayed from the true mission of training and aiding Middle-earth they couldn't just go beat Sauron. I'm not saying necesarrily that one could beat Sauron but certainly Curumo and Alatar or Curumo and Olorin.

: Nah! I'm not convinced. But then I believe that the Valar's attitude sucked when it came to Middle Earth. You deal with your own trash, and Sauron was certainly their trash! And you don't allow thousands of elves, dwarves and men to get killed to teach them an object lesson in how to help themselves. After all Eonwe helped out the Numenorians in a very big way, actually visiting them and allowing the Eldar fo Valinor to have commerce with them - bit of a bonus eh!

>>How do you explain Gandalf's comment then?

: : As for the fear issue, let's remember that Sauron is subject to the same fear. He fears the Istari, he fears the great elves (Elrond, Galadriel etc.), he fears Aragorn too. So he isn't much defferent than Morgoth. Also when a Ainur becomes evil doesn't he loose some native power? i thought I read that somewhere.

: Morgoth and the Balrog's lost their ability to change to a fair form. I believe that this was due to their evil nature's, but then Sauron did not loose this power until the Fall of Numenor and he certainly was an evil geeza long before that! maybe it's different for each Ainur!

: : Finally what you say about Gil-galad and Elendil is what I think you called changing the story from Tolkien's intentions. Sauron was thrown down in the end by elves and men. Something that couldn't have even happened to Gandalf after his resurrection to White (he says that none have weapon to harm him).

: Gil-galad and Elendil beat Sauron because Sauron was was still recovering from have to re-form himself after having gotten blasted when Numenor joined the crabs. This is straight from one of Tolkien's letters so I guess that makes it from the horses mouth as it were. Also I believe (can't actually remember which letter but it *is* there) in the same letter it states that Gandalf the White (GW) was just Gandalf the Grey (GG) with less restrictions. Note less, not all! I simply *do not* accept that GW was as physically indestructable as has been suggested. GG died! Therefore so could GW, it would just have taken someone of *Real* arse kicking power to do it, like Sauron, maybe another Balrog and just possibly (if he got real lucky) the Witch-King.

>> I think you misunderstand me. What I had meant was Gandalf was as Sauron was, certainly able to be harmed, but not in the carnate body. So he couldn't die in the mortal sense, but certainly severly hurt. But now I've learned I was mistaken. But I think Tolkien explanation is poor. He says in a Letter that "sent back naked until his task is done" literally means naked not, not incarntated. But obviously Gandalf was not naked the whole time, so we are each left to our own thoughts.

: : Finally (again), I'm not sure if you said it, but comparing Gandalf to the Nazgul is foolish. Gandalf is a Maia, the Nazgul are spirits of men. Gandalf could beat them all no problem.

: GG was tough, but he *ran* from only five of the Nazgul at Weathertop. GW was harder and could stand up to and *certainly* defeat the Lord of the Nazgul, but as for taking the lot of them - I do not think so! That would illegitimise the threat they represented. Also it has been said that the Maiar are capable of fear! Tolkien states that the Nazgul's greatest weapon was fear! So come one lads and lasses, make up your mind's.

>>Padster, true the Nazguls weapon is fear and Maia are capable of fear, but just because Maia have fear doesn't mean they fear everything. So the Nazgul are virtually powerless if not feared and I don't believe GW feared them. I'm not saying he had no fear, just not them. (Glorfindel and Aragorn were supposedly able to match them if G&A were on steeds so GW could easily kick all nines butts. : : Jon

: Cheers

: Padster

Jon