The White Council

Re: Just suppose...

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

::Why? Frodo wouldn't have hurt Sam even in such situation.

Because Frodo had just surcome to the power of the One Ring. Or rather he had surcome to its corrupting influence and would not suffer any other to have it. With that in mind he would have done anything to anyone (if it was in his power) to avoid his 'precious' being taken away from him.

::If he had no personal power at all,then how did he manage to keep the Ring under his control all the way,and to overcome the temptation to use it before that?

He did NOT keep the ring under his control. He managed to avoid it controlling him, or falling under its corruption influence. To suggest that he had the One Ring under control is to suggest that he had power over it and we all know that not even Tom Bombadil had power over the One Ring.

As Gandalf says in 'The Shadow of the Past':

'A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo.  It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it....It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.' ...... 'There was more than one power at work, Frodo.  The Ring was trying to get back to its master......So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum...' ...... '...and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.' 'But I have so little of any of those things!...'

The One Ring had mastered Frodo and although it could not force Frodo to Barad-dur, just like it could not force Gollum, it was in control and still trying to return to its true master, Sauron.

::There were many situations where nobody would have had the courage and the strength to do what Frodo did,and that's a fact.

Nobody? I don't think so. Aragorn would have. Gandalf the White would have. Sam DID! And in the end Frodo lacked the courage and strength to cast the Ring into the fire.

Aragorn strove with Sauron through the Palantir, bearing all in that he gave Sauron definate proof that the heir of Isildur was now coming. Sam bore the ring while Frodo was in the tower of Cirith Ungol

::I totally disagree.

OK. Show some evidence to support your theories.

::I think it was even greater temptation for him.His power increased,and so the desire to utilize this power with the help of the Ring.

What happened to Gandalf to increase his power is subject to debate, but the commonly held theory was that he passed to Iluvatar who enhanced him and one the way (there or back - I don't know) he passed Morgoth in the Void to re-enforce his belief in his mission. He returned more potent than before and having had the spiritual re-enforcement of the Creator himself. And you think he could still be corrupted by the One Ring?

::He sure did,and much more than "tiny".

OK. Appart from reading the above, where does he show such power?

::His power didn't come from being a Baggins.Power is an inner quality,either you have it or you don't.

I'm not talking about his moral strength, which I am sure was very high. I'm talking about power, magickal power if you like (it's only a term after all). Hobbits didn't have any. Dunedain had a bit. Elves had a lot. Maia had even more.

::I find it very likely.He could command Sam even without the Ring.

The One Ring certainly helped in dominating the minds of others, but Frodo lacked the power, knowledge or ability to use it, otherwise if he could have done it to Sam, then he would have done it to Gollum instead of letting Gollum bit his finger off.

::That was not a coincidence.Just before the scene at the Cracks of Doom,when Gollum attacks Frodo,Frodo says the following:"Begone,and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again,you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom".(p.922) So he basically repeats what he said several chapters earlier.After Gollum touches him(biting off his finger),he falls into the fire,and that suggests that Frodo commandedhim to do so.

No. Not actively anyway. The reason why Gollum was affected in this way was due to the fact that he could not help but obey the Ring. As Frodo says:

'...and the precious mastered you long ago.  If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire.  And such would be my command...'

So Gollum was under the influence of the One Ring. Sam was not! If anything thats why Gollum found himself sucking lava. Not because he was being told to jump into the lava by the Ring, for that would have been suicide for the One itself, but because he was uttery subject to he perception of what he had to do when the Ring was involved. All Frodo did was give him the suggestion that he would fall into the fire.

::Don't be so sure! Of course usually a Maia is stronger than a simple mortal,but Frodo's power was enhanced by the One Ring. Maybe he couldn't have commanded Gandalf,but so Gandalf couldn't have commanded him.

Of that I am sure. And since Gandalf could not have commanded him (it was not his way) he would have fried him instead.

::At that moment,Frodo was the master of the One.

No! Sauron was Master of the One. No one else. If Frodo had been master of the One then he would have been able to command the Nazgul, but they were obviously still under the command of Sauron, for he sent the steaming to Mount Doom to get it for him.

Padster