The White Council

Re: Thingol & Mirkwood Elf King

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : I noticed in The Hobbit that the reason given for the enmity : : between dwarves & the Mirkwood elf king sounds extremely : : similar to the story of Thingol, King of Beleriand and the : : Nauglimer - the dwarves necklace (dwarves stole the elf's stuff : : though the dwarves claimed they weren't paid for work done). : : Was this just a case of Tolkien borrowing an earlier concept : : for this story, or did he later decide that the Mirkwood elves : : were a remnant of Thingol's folk after the fall of Beleriand?

: Actually, the passage in THE HOBBIT to which you are referring does not discuss any enmity between Thranduil and Dwarves -- it is simply a reference to the war between Thingol and the Dwarves of Nogrod, intermixed with the story of Thorin's imprisonment. This is not immediately obvious from the text. My source is Douglas Anderson's THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT. I'm not sure if I was aware of the connection prior to purchasing a copy of the book.

: The information provided about Thingol's people is not really "accurate", however, such as the statement that they didn't "bother much with trade or with tilling the earth".

: That Thranduil's Elves feared Thorin might be an enemy is indisputable -- but they had no knowledge of who he was or why he was in their kingdom. Thranduil was aware of Thorin and Company and had left them alone while they stayed on the road, and his only real complaint against Thorin seems to be that the Dwarves kept interrupting the Elves' feasting.

: But when Thorin (and later the rest of the Dwarves) refused to explain why they were in the Elvenrealm at all, then Thranduil imprisoned them to wait and until they proved more willing to talk. There is actually little evidence of "enmity" between Elves and Dwarves in THE HOBBIT (or any of Tolkien's books).

: Keep in mind that THE HOBBIT was not originally written to be a part of Tolkien's Silmarillion world. It was simply borrowing some ideas from that world for enhancement. To find a more "accurate" picture of the relation of HOBBIT Elves and Dwarves to one another, you need to look back at "A Short Rest":

:

 :   "So they laughed and sang in the trees; and pretty fair :   nonsense I daresay you think it.  Not that they would care; :   they would only laugh all the more if you told them so.  They :   were elves of course.  Soon Bilbo caught glimpses of them as :   the darkness deepened.  He loved elves, though he seldom met :   them; but he was a little frightened of them too.  Dwarves :   don't get on well with them.  Even decent enough dwarves like :   Thorin and his friends think them foolish (which is a very :   foolish thing to think), or get annoyed with them.  For some :   elves tease them and laugh at them, and most of all at their :   beards." : 

: Do these sound like the high and noble Noldor of Gondolin and Hithlum? Of course not. Everything you find in THE HOBBIT should be taken with a grain of salt, tempeered with the knowledge that Tolkien did not revise the entire book to be completely compatible with his other stories. He did revise the history of the Elves with respect to the Sun and Moon in THE HOBBIT in anticipation of dispensing with the myth of the creation of the sun and moon, but Christopher Tolkien included that myth in THE SILMARILLION because his father never rewrote the narrative.

Thanks! I just re-read The Hobbit. I'll have to double-check that section on the elf-king knowing what I know now.

I'm fascinated about the revisions regarding elves, sun & moon. What exactly was changed? What chapter? What did it say at first?