The White Council

Re: Goldberry

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

No, Maiar or Valar can't reproduce themselves, he reject that hypthesis in his last years, in History of Middle-earth Christpoher Tolkien talk of the Vanimallion ( the sons of the Valar ), Tolkien has many years talk of that ( of Fionwë son of Manwë and Varda was suppose to beat Morgoth at the end of the world with the aid of Túrin ) but he forget that and Fionwë becomes in The Silmarillion Eonwë the herald of Manwë. That means that the Ainur cannot reproduce themselves with an other Ainur. 1st because Iluvatar don't has created them for that, ( how asexual being can have children ? ). It is like Iluvatar said to Aulë when he created the Dwarves. Even if they create childs they won't live when they'll don't think for them. The only way for the Ainur to have children is to do like Melian and become for herself a true ELF-WOMAN body. Then she can bear a child if the Father is an Elf. So Lúthien is not forest spirit but an Elf-woman.

So if Goldberry has divine blood, that means that her father was an Elf and her mother "The river-woman" a Maïa. But I don't think so. I think that she is no more then an Elf-woman who was "force" to wed Tom Bombadil when she was young ( see "The adventures of Tom Bombadil").

: : : I guess that clears up the question, "Who were Tolkien's favorite characters?", eh?

: : Well, why only Luthien and Beren? Maybe he wanted to have a more "Philemon and Baucis" sort of stuff-which would be the opld Tolkien couple. Whatever : : Regarding Goldberry, she is the Riverwoman´s daughter. So maybe we should ask ourselves who the Riverwoman is??? : : O.K., WHO IS SHE?

: There is no particular reason why Tolkien might not identify himself and his wife with other characters in his stories - though the only one for which there is any evidence is the Beren-Luthien one.

: As for Bombadil and Goldberry they don't fit very well into the rest of what we know of Arda, hence the debate.

: From an external point of view they are easily placed as forms of the nature spirit found in virtually all mythologies. Bombadil is a genius loci, a Green Man, Boggart or whatever you like to call him, Goldberry a water nymph or Lady of the Lake figure. Their genesis seems to have been outside the development of Tolkien's main mythology; then later inserted into it, with certain difficulties which Tolkien never resolved (at least publically). Tolkien was obviously quite happy to leave both characters as enigmas.

: Retuning to the "Internal" question, Goldberry's ancestry could be merely metaphorical - "River-daughter" as you might describe a sailor as "A son of the sea." Or if the Maia could reproduce she might be the progeny of two of the followers of Ulmo. Tolkien never really fully made up his mind as to whether his "Angelic Spirits" could reproduce - Melian did and so apparently did Ungoliant - though this was with due to mating with corporeal beings. At one stage Eonwe was going to be the son of Manwe and Varda, but this was later dropped.

: So basically you can believe whatever you prefer on the whole subject.