The White Council

Re: inspired by wraith-world discussion

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: Thanks, duellists, for a great read. But it leaves me with some questions. First: I always thought that the swords and spears of the Army of the Dead could and did inflict wounds in the enemy soldiers, whether Men or Orcs. Their ghostly presence was enough to send many soldiers running for the hills but I wouldn't think moving dead men would scare Orcs? What's the consensus on this? Second: I'm not sure what was meant by the reference to Prof. Tolkien's use of "time distortion" in Lothlorien. One of the fellowship (Sam?) comments on the phase of the moon being different from what he'd expected. But I figured that the "power of the Lady" was such that they forgot so fully about the outside world and the pain they had been carrying that it seemed as though time had stood still. I'm almost sure someone says "we've been here a month" which solves the mystery of the moon's similiar phase. If there is time distortion in a "science fiction" sense I guess I missed it. Comments, please? And finally, I wanted to comment on the mention of the Nazgul's fear of water and the comment that it was "odd". I had always thought it a little lame, a way to give the Nazgul some handy weaknesses until I read the Silmarillion. Could it be that the spirit of the great Ulmo still ran in the waters of Middle Earth, albeit less powerfully and with less direct intervention than before? I admit I have a great love of rivers so the idea really appeals to me. In my 700 page screenplay version of LOTR (yeah, me too) I had the voice of the "summons dream" come from the river. Boromir carries with him to Rivendell a flask containing water from the Anduin. At the Council, Elrond pours this water into a bowl, breathes on it, emerses his hands in it and we "hear" the voice repeat the summons-prophecy "Seek for the Sword-that-was-broken...etc. : Anyway, does anyone else think that Ulmo may have been behind the Ringwraith's seemingly odd fear of water? I'd love to know.

Michael and myself seem to lock-swords over various issues at fairly regular intervals. I would say he is both a courteous and skilled fencer.

If the orcs were derived from warped elves it would seem logical that the shades of men would hold as little fear for them as they did for Legolas. Though they were apparently petrified of the Nazgul, who were admittedly more than mere shades.

I'm working purely from memory - but I think that the Umbar fleet was largely (wholly ?) manned by Haradrim - who would be open to the terror of the Army of the Dead. Perhaps any orcs present were crushed underfoot in the panic stricken stampede of the Haradrim. In addition Aragorn had living troops - the Dunedain of the North and, in much larger numbers, the soldiery of the fiefs of southern Gondor he had picked up on his march. These would have been useful in disposing of any enemies who had escaped death by terror, crushing or drowning,