The White Council

Re: Time Passing In Lorien (was Re: inspired by wraith-world discussion)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : Time is not distorted in Bombadil's house. No one lost track : : of the days. Nor does anyone seem to have lost track of the : : days in Rivendell (although a time distortion there would : : have been consistent with the time distortion in Lorien since : : Elrond had one of the Three). Being captivated by songs is : : not the same as time distortion. : : "The hobbits under the spell of Tom's words may have missed one : meal or many, but when the food was before them it seemed at : least a week since they had eaten." IN THE HOUSE OF TOM : BOMBADIL : : Are we to infer that time slows in Tom's house too? I'm not so : sure.

That passage is not providing the same kind of information as the passage on Anduin where Sam stops and says he can't account for the lost time.

The only pasage I can find in the chapter which might convince some people that time flowed unusually in Bombadil's house is the paragraph which reads:

   "Whether the morning and evening of one day or of many days had   passed Frodo could not tell.  He did not feel either hungry or   tired, only filled with wonder.  The stars shone through the   window and the silence of the heavens seemed to be round him.   He spoke at last of his wonder and a sudden fear of that   silence: 

However, Tolkien is careful to provide us with information on when the hobbits reached Bombadil's house, when they went to sleep, when they awoke, when they ate, when they went to sleep, etc. We can count the days for ourselves. They were only with him for two days. They reached his house on the 26th and left on the 28th. They never really express any doubt or concern about how many days they've missed out. Also, Gandalf's passage through Minhiriath and the Shire provides us with a reference for time passing outside of Bombadil's land. We can determine from that information there was no distortion.

So, even though I concede the passage I cite above is probably open to interpretation, my interpretation is that Frodo was lulled into a dream-like state by Bombadil's voice. I've had such experiences myself, and believe many people do have such experiences. I think Tolkien wrote it that way because he knew the reader was likely to remember a similar evening or afternoon chat.

The ambiguity of my passage, some people may note, seems enhanced by the passage you cite. But I don't believe there is really any ambiguity. Tolkien is trying to establish the enchanting presence of Bombadil -- he is a fascination in himself, and he mesmerizes the hobbits. But just as Tom is not Master over other wills, I don't see how he can be Master over Time. That doesn't fit with his character.

: : No, we must use Sam's reckoning, where he says he can : : remember three nights for certain and maybe several more. : : That's a far cry from 30 days. Even Aragorn agrees with : : Frodo that time moved quickly in Lorien, "as for the Elves". : : It is certain that they experienced far fewer than 30 days : : in Lorien.

: The fact that he says he can only "remembers" some things : imlies that he has forgotten some things, and who's to say how : much. Let's just say that it's far more plausible that Sam : forgot 20 days than it is for the Lady to hold back time in the : way you are speaking of. And it is certainly NOT certain that : they spent fewer than 30 days in Lórien.

No, it's not plausible at all. No one else remembers any more nights and days there; no one else remembers seeing the moon pass through its phases. Both Aragorn and Frodo state that less time passed in Lorien than in the lands outside. In the reckoning of the lands outside Lorien they most certainly did spend a month in Lorien -- but they experienced far fewer days there.

The purpose of the Rings was to hold back Time, so the Elves would not feel the world-weariness that would eventually force them to leave Middle-earth. The Rings were not preserving the Elves, they were slowing Time for them. This may more than anything explain why the Elves seemed to be so insular. They had to stay in relatively close proximity to the Rings, perhaps, in order to enjoy the full effects of the time-slowing.

Tolkien stated unequivocably that the Rings held back Time. There is simply no way to argue successfully that they could not have done so. He said they did and that's that. But like all things their power must have had limits. And no, I cannot explain the apparent anomalies concerning Rivendell -- unless it were that Elrond could command his Ring to STOP slowing Time while he needed to be in close communication with the world outside his domain.

Tolkien did not give us full explanations for this power of the Rings. We are admittedly forced to find them in the texts, and the Lorien episode is unfortunately the only one which clearly indicates what happened due to the Ring.

However, there is one interesting passage in "The Ring Goes South". Near the beginning of the chapter the following occurs:

   "'How long do you think I shall have here?' said Frodo to   Bilbo when Gandalf had gone.
  "'Oh, I don't know.  I can't count days in Rivendell,' said   Bilbo.  'But quite long, I should think.  We can have many a   good talk.  What about helping me with my book. and making   a start on the next?  Have you thuoght of an ending?'" 

On the other hand, there is a reference later on to "the Hunter's Moon" waxing "round in the night sky".