The White Council

Re: Time Passing In Lorien (was Re: inspired by wraith-world discussion)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : The fact that he says he can only "remembers" some things : : imlies that he has forgotten some things, and who's to say how : : much. Let's just say that it's far more plausible that Sam : : forgot 20 days than it is for the Lady to hold back time in the : : way you are speaking of. And it is certainly NOT certain that : : they spent fewer than 30 days in Lórien.

: No, it's not plausible at all. No one else remembers any more nights and days there; no one else remembers seeing the moon pass through its phases. Both Aragorn and Frodo state that less time passed in Lorien than in the lands outside. In the reckoning of the lands outside Lorien they most certainly did spend a month in Lorien -- but they experienced far fewer days there.

: The purpose of the Rings was to hold back Time, so the Elves would not feel the world-weariness that would eventually force them to leave Middle-earth. The Rings were not preserving the Elves, they were slowing Time for them. This may more than anything explain why the Elves seemed to be so insular. They had to stay in relatively close proximity to the Rings, perhaps, in order to enjoy the full effects of the time-slowing.

: Tolkien stated unequivocably that the Rings held back Time. There is simply no way to argue successfully that they could not have done so. He said they did and that's that. But like all things their power must have had limits. And no, I cannot explain the apparent anomalies concerning Rivendell -- unless it were that Elrond could command his Ring to STOP slowing Time while he needed to be in close communication with the world outside his domain.

: Tolkien did not give us full explanations for this power of the Rings. We are admittedly forced to find them in the texts, and the Lorien episode is unfortunately the only one which clearly indicates what happened due to the Ring.

: However, there is one interesting passage in "The Ring Goes South". Near the beginning of the chapter the following occurs:

:

 :   "'How long do you think I shall have here?' said Frodo to :   Bilbo when Gandalf had gone.
:   "'Oh, I don't know.  I can't count days in Rivendell,' said :   Bilbo.  'But quite long, I should think.  We can have many a :   good talk.  What about helping me with my book. and making :   a start on the next?  Have you thuoght of an ending?'" : 

: On the other hand, there is a reference later on to "the Hunter's Moon" waxing "round in the night sky".

I think we can attribute that to Bilbo's old age and increasing forgetfulness (ie. he forgot the Ring was destroyed, and he gave Sting to Frodo again).

I know the Three hold back time, and if Tolkien said that they hold back in Time in the way you are saying, I guess it must be so. But if he simply said, "They hold back time" that can be open to interpretation. I would love to believe that the Rings did that, but I don't think by Sam saying he can't remember most of the days in Rivendell, we can just assume this is so. Aragorn is wise, but I don't know if he knew the full extent of the Rings powers.

I interpreted it more as preserving not the elves, but allowing the things within the realm (mortals, trees, etc) to remain relatively uneffected. I point to Gandalf for one. It seems he took Narya as much to preserve or heal his mortal body, as much as he used it for anything else. Because Gandalf was subject to weariness and death. And it seemed that Gandalf seldom slept at all. I also look to the fact that neither the Havens nor Rivendell were able to hold back time.

Holding back time can mean to slow the flow of year OR to stop what Time does. And it seems like Tolkien is trying to trick us into believing that time stopped. They leave Lórien 30 days after they went in. Therefore they see the same moon they did when they went in. For Sam, was it the power of suggestion?