The White Council

Re: Wraith-world

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : First of all, we are not agreed that Gandalf's comments have : : : the implications you say they do. Those implications, if : : : they were there, would be borne out by Tolkien's other : : : material concerning wraiths in Middle-earth. Instead, they : : : conflict with that other material, so they are inferences and : : : not implications at all.

: : So you are able to agree that Gandalf's words on this subject : : do, at face value, conflict with the rest of Tolkien's : : cosmological writings. This has been my central point all : : along. I can see no problem with these being inferences rather : : than implications - the words have a certain level of overlap : : anyway.

: No, what I meant was that the implications you are describing conflict with the other material. I would agree that, given no other context, Gandalf's words could be ambiguous. But we are provided with a context which removes the ambiguity.

The context of Tolkien's other writings does not exclude the possibility that he had a slightly different (possibly unconscious) vision of matters when he was writing the particular passage in question. As he is known to have overlooked inconsistances between his various writings on other occasions it would not be without precedent. This being the case I think a little speculation is not totally inappropriate.

: : : Secondly, see my point about Ëa above with respect to the : : : dictionary definition you provided. Unless one gives "world" : : : its most limited meaning, even by that definition everything : : : I have said fits with what Tolkien and the dictionary have to : : : say.

: : Except that Gandalf said that Frodo would enter the : : wraith-world - with the inference that this was somewhat : : divorced from the waking world of Middle Earth - rather than : : just saying Frodo would become like the Nazgul. I can imagine : : that this "World" would be a part of Ea - albeit a distorted : : part.

: If Frodo's body simply faded -- so that, like the bodies of the Nazgul -- it was no longer really there, then he would indeed "enter the wraith-world". But he would not be leaving Middle-earth. Even when disrobed the Nazgul were able to travel through Middle-earth and to interact with it. They caused great fear in those who sensed their presence, and Sam and Frodo heard the (impotent) voice of the Lord of the Nazgul as his spirit flew over them to (presumably) Barad-dur after Merry and Eowyn had dealt with him.

If he were "No longer really there [Middle Earth]" then surely he must be at least partly elsewhere - pure sophistry but I couldn't resist :-)

: [huge snip]

: : : On the one hand you say it is the immersion in water which : : : weakened them, and yet now you say it is the loss of clothing : : : which would "also debilitate the Nazgul". The knit-sinew : : : spell (for lack of a better referent) is not broken at the : : : Ford of Bruinen. The Lord of the Nazgul is still able to : : : function in Middle-earth afterward. He is rendered harmless : : : by Merry and Eowyn's strokes, however, when the spell is : : : broken by Merry's sword. He is no longer able to function in : : : Middle-earth. The last we "see" of him is when his shadow : : : passes overhead as Sam and Frodo journey through Mordor. : : :

: I should note here that I appear to be contradicting myself. By "no longer able to function in Middle-earth" I meant, however, that he could no longer wield his terrible powers.

: : I meant that the loss of the robes would debilitate the Nazgul : : merely to the extent that conversations with corporeal beings : : would be difficult as they would be invisible. In addition the : : Nazgul seem to have suffered some further limitation to their : : powers of action - if you believe the robes were magical the : : loss of these would be the reason - if like me you believe the : : immersion was more important this would be the reason. It is : : my opinion that it is hard to see how the loss of a robe would : : affect the sinew-knit spell, therefore the only other : : expanation of the Nazgul's loss of effectiveness (other than : : merely being rendered invisble) is that the total immersion was : : the cause.

: I don't see that the sinew spell was affected at all when they were defeated at the Ford of Bruinen. They were able to take shape again after they returned to Mordor. Even the Nazgul whom Legolas downed on the River was able to get another mount and keep going. They were not rendered impotent by immersion in water as the Lord of the Nazgul was by Merry and Eowyn's strokes.

Now this is interesting - I would (because there is no other evidence available) assume that this spell was the thing which gave the Nazgul their ability to physically interact with the real world. That they had to return to Mordor after the ford I would think must have been due to this spell being temporarily weakened. I have this core dislike of the concept that the robes could impart this ability despite Gandalf's remark. Though I could imagine that the loss of the robes in allowing light to reach the Nazgul might be debilitating to them. Presumably the Nazgul had a long walk after the ford, as they seem to require steeds for faster travel. This raises another conundrum - if as seems likely (otherwise why did they have to return to Mordor?), they had lost their ability to interact with physical objects how did their feet gain traction on the ground?

: : : What sort of sword was he armed with at Weathertop? We know : : : he had a Morgul-knife in one hand, but he dropped that. No : : : one but Frodo saw the swords the Nazgul bore -- were they : : : nothing more than "wraith-swords", shadows of memories of : : : weapons such as the Dead Men of Dunharrow bore? : : : : This opens up another area of uncertainty about the Nazgul. : : The Nagul seem to have been able to handle real objects. They : : twitched real harness on their horses, and the sword and mace : : flourished by Morgul at Pelennor Field have the appearance of : : solidity. Therefore it would have been prudent of the Nazgul : : to equip themselves with solid swords. However, as you say : : only Frodo saw these so it is an open question as to whether : : they were real or not. The same applies to the helms and mail : : the Nazgul were wearing at the time.

: I would say they had "phantom" swords and armor on when Frodo saw them -- similar to the weapons and armor of the Dead Men of Dunharrow. We are never told how effective these weapons might be. But they are certainly, when given shape, able to mount and ride horses and other creatures and thus to wield other "real" weapons such as the knife and mace. But this is simply a benefit of being given shape.

A very useful benefit if you come up against any being (such as Aragorn and others) who would prove resistant to mere fear.

: : : Nonetheless, even the greatest swordsman can be burned by : : : fire, and would not foolishly disregard it if such were : : : wielded against him simply because he possessed a sword. : : : : Presuming for the moment that the Nazgul's swords were real, : : and ignoring that these were terrifying undead beings - would : : nine armed men be at all wary of tackling one man and four : : child-sized beings armed with torches and daggers? This would : : suggest that fire held some particularly dangerous threat to : : the Nazgul.

: It would also suggest that the swords were not "real" -- not physical swords, at any rate. But fire gives off light -- that may be the aspect of it which bothers the Nazgul. Their power is at its greatest when they are in the darkness. That seems to be why Sauron sent that huge cloud over Rohan and Gondor.

Possibly - the swords that is.

: : At a complete tangent - did Aragorn have other weapons : : (particularly a melee weapon like a sword) than his broken : : sword at this point? It would be somewhat foolish of him to be : : armed with only a snapped off hilt.

: There is no mention of Aragorn's carrying anything other than the shards of Narsil during the journey from Bree to Rivendell. Other people have wondered about this as well, but I cannot find any text which dwells on the matter. Fortunately, except for the Nazgul, Aragorn and the Hobbits didn't run into any problems on their way to Elrond's house.

Strange. Particularly as the other Dunedain Rangers were described as heavily armed (spear, bow and sword). Presumably Aragorn may have had a long-knife, such as a basilard, without great notice being taken of it. A sling and shot would also be very unobtrusively carried about the person - useful for small game for the pot also.