The White Council

Re: Wraith-world

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

[snip]

: : No, what I meant was that the implications you are describing : : conflict with the other material. I would agree that, given : : no other context, Gandalf's words could be ambiguous. But we : : are provided with a context which removes the ambiguity.

: The context of Tolkien's other writings does not exclude the : possibility that he had a slightly different (possibly : unconscious) vision of matters when he was writing the : particular passage in question. As he is known to have : overlooked inconsistances between his various writings on other : occasions it would not be without precedent. This being the : case I think a little speculation is not totally inappropriate.

There is nothing in any of Tolkien's writings which speaks of, hints at, or points to a separate reality for the disembodied spirits of the Ainur, Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Spirits are a part of the whole world -- Ëa, the World That Is -- what we call the universe. The Ainur can "clothe" themselves in physical bodies, the Elves' spirits are so closely tied to their bodies that they have greater control over those bodies and can still perceive disembodied spirits, and Men's spirits have an aspect which drives them to "seek elsewhere" after a time.

The "spirit world" of Tolkien is simply another spectrum or aspect of the whole World he devised. It moves within and is a part of that entire world.

[snip]

: : If Frodo's body simply faded -- so that, like the bodies of : : the Nazgul -- it was no longer really there, then he would : : indeed "enter the wraith-world". But he would not be leaving : : Middle-earth. Even when disrobed the Nazgul were able to : : travel through Middle-earth and to interact with it. They : : caused great fear in those who sensed their presence, and Sam : : and Frodo heard the (impotent) voice of the Lord of the : : Nazgul as his spirit flew over them to (presumably) Barad-dur : : after Merry and Eowyn had dealt with him. : : If he were "No longer really there [Middle Earth]" then surely : he must be at least partly elsewhere - pure sophistry but I : couldn't resist :-)

I forgive you. :)

Frodo would still be there -- but if his body faded, then it would not be. Frodo was more than a body -- he was a spirit and a body, and in fading he would have lost that part of himself which was the body but that part which was the spirit would still exist.

I have actually been investigating this phenomenon through research for an entirely unrelated subject (magic in Middle-earth), and I am more convinced than ever that there was only the one "reality" for Ëa. The key to seeing that is to understand how the Valar (and other Ainur) incarnated themselves at will:

   "Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because   they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of   Iluvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that   manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Iluvatar, save   only in majesty and splendour.  Moreover their shape comes of   their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World   itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment,   and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being.   Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then   even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be   present.  But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar   take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for   that difference of temper they had even from their beginning,   and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by   the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by   the raiment but is not made thereby...." 

Note several things here:

1. Tolkien speaks of "the visible World"
2. He says "even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them"
3. He speaks of our "raiment" with respect to the sexes

Tolkien was speaking of one world in which we (Incarnates) dwell on two levels: the "seen" and the "unseen", the "visible" and the "invisible". The Eldar can perceive "unclad beings", though the perceive the Valar only with difficulty. And even our own bodies are called "raiment" by Tolkien. By extension we can say that without our bodies we have not lost ourselves, just as the Valar suffer "no loss of their being" when they are not Incarnated.

Gandalf says of the Eldar who have lived in Aman that against both the Seen and the Unseen they wield great power. They have learned much from the Valar and Maiar. But the Seen and the Unseen coexist within Ëa in the same reality. There is no division, no concept of separate worlds, except insofar as two people may live and function in different parts of the world and be "in separate worlds" metaphorically.

[big snip]

: : I don't see that the sinew spell was affected at all when : : they were defeated at the Ford of Bruinen. They were able to : : take shape again after they returned to Mordor. Even the : : Nazgul whom Legolas downed on the River was able to get : : another mount and keep going. They were not rendered : : impotent by immersion in water as the Lord of the Nazgul was : : by Merry and Eowyn's strokes. : : Now this is interesting - I would (because there is no other : evidence available) assume that this spell was the thing which : gave the Nazgul their ability to physically interact with the : real world. That they had to return to Mordor after the ford I : would think must have been due to this spell being temporarily : weakened. I have this core dislike of the concept that the : robes could impart this ability despite Gandalf's remark. : Though I could imagine that the loss of the robes in allowing : light to reach the Nazgul might be debilitating to them. : Presumably the Nazgul had a long walk after the ford, as they : seem to require steeds for faster travel. This raises another : conundrum - if as seems likely (otherwise why did they have to : return to Mordor?), they had lost their ability to interact : with physical objects how did their feet gain traction on the : ground?

They lost their robes at the Ford. Without the robes, according to Gandalf, they could not function in the physical world. If the sinew spell was weakened at the Ford, it should (by extrapolation) have been weakened by the loss of the robes, and ot the immersion in water. The Nazgul were unharmed, and Gandalf said they could not be harmed by the water.

In "The Ring Goes South" Gandalf and Merry have the following exchange:

   "'I thought they were all destroyed in the flood,' said Merry.
  "'You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that,' said Gandalf. 'The   power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by   him.  We hope that they were all unhorsed and unmasked, and   so made for a while less dangerous; but we must find out for   certain....'" 

I understand that Merry and Gandalf are speaking of the destruction of Ringwraiths and not something less, but Gandalf does speak of the "hope that they were all unhorsed and unmasked". He makes no mention of their being weakened by the water. When the reports from the scouts are brought in over the next two months, Gandalf concludes:

   "'Eight out of the Nine are accounted for at least,' said   Gandalf.  'It is rash to be too sure, yet I think that we may   hope now that that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have   been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in   Mordor, empty and shapeless.'" 

I won't argue that Gandalf is the most authoritative source on Ringwraiths -- that would have to be Sauron. But Gandalf's knowledge of the Seen versus the Unseen must be considerable. If he speaks of the Ringwraiths being empty and shapeless after they have been unmasked, then what else can he mean but that without their robes they cannot interact directly with the physical world?

[snip]

: : I would say they had "phantom" swords and armor on when Frodo : : saw them -- similar to the weapons and armor of the Dead Men : : of Dunharrow. We are never told how effective these weapons : : might be. But they are certainly, when given shape, able to : : mount and ride horses and other creatures and thus to wield : : other "real" weapons such as the knife and mace. But this is : : simply a benefit of being given shape. : : A very useful benefit if you come up against any being (such as : Aragorn and others) who would prove resistant to mere fear.

True.

[another snip]

: : There is no mention of Aragorn's carrying anything other than : : the shards of Narsil during the journey from Bree to : : Rivendell. Other people have wondered about this as well, : : but I cannot find any text which dwells on the matter. : : Fortunately, except for the Nazgul, Aragorn and the Hobbits : : didn't run into any problems on their way to Elrond's house. : : Strange. Particularly as the other Dunedain Rangers were : described as heavily armed (spear, bow and sword). Presumably : Aragorn may have had a long-knife, such as a basilard, without : great notice being taken of it. A sling and shot would also be : very unobtrusively carried about the person - useful for small : game for the pot also.

I have no idea. I sometimes get the impression Aragorn could wander off into the brush and come back fuly armed in some fashion if he so wished. And though I doubt he carried the Sword that was Broken all his adult life (what would they have made of it in Gondor?), I suspect in a pinch he could have used the shards to deadly effect against at least a normal Man, ill-armed.

Many people have wondered what the mysterious mission was Aragorn undertook which led him away from the Shire when Gandalf received Saruman's message. A popular speculation is that he went off to collect the shards of Narsil, deeming the time was near when it would finally be reforged.

Or maybe he was just a forerunner of MacGyver. I don't know if they air (or have aired) that show in the UK. Richard Dean Anderson (currently starring in STARGATE-SG1) starred in MacGyver in the late 1980s and early 1990s. He was a very resourceful adventurer/agent who refused to carry weapons. He could always come up with some weird solution to just about any problem. A chocolate bar in MacGyver's hands was an effective aid against, say, an acid bath.

MacGyver and Aragorn might prove to have a great deal in common, given closer inspection (although I don't have the time for that).