The White Council

Re: Eldarin Fertility (was Re: In what ways did the Elves use their Rings?)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : Indeed. But in MORGOTH'S RING Tolkien explains how they : : actually lost a part of their strength or spirit in : : reproducing, so they would normally have at most only four or : : so children. Feanor and Nerdanel were highly remarkable for : : producing seven sons. : : Curious. I missed that bit. Yet, in the same volume Finwë : (after losing Míriel) says: "Alone among the Eldar I have no : wife, and must hope for no sons, save one, and no daughter. : Whereas Ingwë and Olwë beget many children in the bliss of : Aman." (p.258) I took that to mean that large families were the : norm in Valinor (after all Finwë actually had six, if we count : the three girls out of Indis).

The families could indeed have been (unusually) large, but that doesn't mean they had to have seven or more children each. They could have had six sons and daughters each. That would probably still qualify as "many" children for most people.

: On the other matter:

: : In the later ages they had fewer children, though Tolkien : : doesn't specify how much later or what the average was ... : : : There should be SOME reason for why the Elves didn't increase : : their numbers throughout the Third Age ...

: Do you risk meeting me halfway, Michael?

I cannot agree that the Rings had anything to do with this -- only that Tolkien says the numbers of children declined in "later ages", and that the numbers of the Eldar in the Third Age were less than in previous ages (apparently). However, we know there was a long period of exodus during the Second Age -- the Black Years, the Days of Flight, from circa SA 1701 to 3262. And then the Eldar suffered greivous losses in the War of the Last Alliance -- what would all the wives of the slain warriors have done? Maybe they went to Aman early in the Third Age, if not all at once.

And there were several wars in the Third Age which would have reduced the numbers of Cirdan's people (and Elrond's) even though they would have had many centuries in which to recover their numbers. Finally, there was the huge departure of Elves near the end of the Third Age, of which Sam laments in the Green Dragon in "Shadow of the Past".

There are simply too many variable factors requiring consideration for me to agree that Elves were becoming incapable of producing children in the Third Age.