The White Council

Re: Time Passing In Lorien (was Re: inspired by wraith-world discussion)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

I have a few comments

1) I realize that those comments by Bilbo were made before the destruction of the Ring, but that was only a about a year before. And Bilbo already seemed not to be himself. He slept frequently and hadn't really worked on much besides poetry over the past few years. I don't think even then Bilbo was "on top of his game" though I don acknowledge it was worse after the destruction of the Ring.

2) I'm not saying Narya prevented Gandalf from dying, I'm saying it may have helped him keep going on long journeys, bear the burdens he had, etc. I realize Gandalf wouldn't "die" unless something happened like in Moria. Because the one of the purposes of the Ring is to heal, and we don't see Gandalf use it to heal others (except maybe Theoden), so it is possible it was aiding him.

3) As for this whole debate, I don't think there is conclusive evidence to without a doubt prove either one of our arguements. I say that just because someone doesn't "remember something" doesn't mean it didn't happen. Remember it was a very traumatic time for all of them. Gandalf had "died", Aragorn was forced to make the toughest of decisions, and rest of them just seemed enamored with Lórien. Either way, I don't think one is definetely wrong or definetly right.

: : : However, there is one interesting passage in "The Ring Goes : : : South". Near the beginning of the chapter the following : : : occurs:

:

 : : :   "'How long do you think I shall have here?' said Frodo to : : :   Bilbo when Gandalf had gone.
: : :   "'Oh, I don't know.  I can't count days in Rivendell,' said : : :   Bilbo.  'But quite long, I should think.  We can have many : : :   a good talk.  What about helping me with my book. and : : :   making a start on the next?  Have you thuoght of an : : :   ending?'" : 

: : : On the other hand, there is a reference later on to "the : : : Hunter's Moon" waxing "round in the night sky".

: : I think we can attribute that to Bilbo's old age and increasing : : forgetfulness (ie. he forgot the Ring was destroyed, and he : : gave Sting to Frodo again).

: No, the scene above occurs before the Fellowship sets out from Rivendell -- not after the destruction of the Ring. Once the Ring was gone Bilbo's age began to catch up to him, and that is when he became forgetful. He was still as healthy and vigorous prior to that time as he had been when he left the Shire many years before.

: : I know the Three hold back time, and if Tolkien said that they : : hold back in Time in the way you are saying, I guess it must be : : so. But if he simply said, "They hold back time" that can be : : open to interpretation. I would love to believe that the Rings : : did that, but I don't think by Sam saying he can't remember : : most of the days in Rivendell, we can just assume this is so. : : Aragorn is wise, but I don't know if he knew the full extent of : : the Rings powers.

: Well, I must concede that "the way I am saying" is my own summation of his words -- or, rather, my own extrapolation/interpretation based on what was published. Tolkien simply "hold back Time". I'm piecing together all the evidence he put into the story -- and there are anomalies, such as the moon over Rivdendell and the lack of a moon over Lorien.

: On the other hand, I'm not making any assumptions. There is no assumption involved in accepting Sam's testimony at face value.

: : I interpreted it more as preserving not the elves, but allowing : : the things within the realm (mortals, trees, etc) to remain : : relatively uneffected. I point to Gandalf for one. It seems : : he took Narya as much to preserve or heal his mortal body, as : : much as he used it for anything else. Because Gandalf was : : subject to weariness and death. And it seemed that Gandalf : : seldom slept at all. I also look to the fact that neither the : : Havens nor Rivendell were able to hold back time.

: Gandalf would not have taken Narya to preserve his life. He was by nature immortal. Mortality in Middle-earth is defined by the death of the body, and Gandalf's body was not "programmed to die" as, say, a Man or a Dwarf's body was. He had taken the form of a Man and was subject to the cares and needs of a man (including food and sleep), but he could endure greater hardships than any normal man and he would not die of old age.

: But the citation I provide above shows clearly that Tolkien may have been indicating that Time was indeed held back in Rivendell -- in fact, Tolkien states the Three Rings were working in this way throughout the Second Age. They did not even need to be worn for that power to take effect. You cannot speak of "the fact that neither the Havens nor Rivendell were able to hold back Time" -- there is no such fact, when you are speaking of a time when the Rings resided in either location. The effects of the Rings must be accepted as Tolkien described them: continuously at work, holding back Time.

: What he didn't describe is what we should be focusing on.

: : Holding back time can mean to slow the flow of year OR to stop : : what Time does. And it seems like Tolkien is trying to trick : : us into believing that time stopped. They leave Lórien 30 days : : after they went in. Therefore they see the same moon they did : : when they went in. For Sam, was it the power of suggestion?

: No, I don't believe he was trying to say Time was stopped. In fact, Legolas argues against that possibility. Time doesn't stand still, he says. But the powers of the Three (which he never came into direct contact with) were very specifically arranged to delay or prevent the fading of the Elves through holding Time back -- undoubtedly through slowing its flow around the Elves.

: The Fellowship did not experience 30 days within Lorien. Think of Relativity, if that helps you. They were in a different time stream, and for them fewer than 30 days passed while for the rest of Middle-earth 30 days passed.