The White Council

Re: Caradhas

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : But isn't a Balrog just a Maia of Morgoth? So therefore if you are implying that Morgoth put some Maia in the Mt, you and I agree. How about that?

: Eeerrr!?! No! Sauron was a Maia and he wasn't a Balrog. The Balrogs, were merely among the most potent Maia that Morgoth seduced. They were also Maia spirits of fire. Osse was of water, at least it can be argued that he was. Morgoth tried to seduce him. Would Osse have changed into a Balrog. I think not!

Padster, I know they are not one and the same, but it's close enough. I say a Maia of Morgoth went into the mt., possibly a Balrog.

: : However, in all the times I have read that chapter I have never gotten any sense of a "personality" or "entity" associated with Caradhras other than when Gimli turns back at the end and says, OKAY we're going. : : I think, in my humble opinion, that Caradhras is the first time that Sauron reaches out towards the company (after the failure of the Nine Riders at the Ford.) once they start the quest. For me reading the books, it was the firt time I felt the power of Sauron lashing out against the Fellowship. If I thought Caradhras had an essence or soul or being, as opposed to thinking that it was Sauron acting upon it, my feeling about Sauron and his powers at that moment would be greatly lessened.

: A good point. And one that has as much validity as any other that has been expressed so far. In fact I would tend to agree. Having Sauron stretch forth his hand and effect a large area of the mountains in an attempt to delay the company is a disgusting display of power, and one that I like the sound of. But then I've always been a favourite of Sauron having been among the top three Maia around and he should be able to express that sort of power.

But if he could stretch his power that far, and knew the company was there, he WOULD HAVE SENSED THE RING. That's why I don't think it was Sauron. Had he known the company was there, he would have spotted them, and even if he couldn't sense the Ring, he would have know Gandalf was there, so something was up.

: : Of course that only leads to the question of who was forcing the action of the tenacled arms and the Balrog in Moria?

I believe Gandalf even said in a response to someone questioning if it was Sauron, I believe he said something along the lines of: his arm has grown long, but not that long.

Jon