Science fiction and fantasy: Xenite.Org -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web!

The White Council

Re: Gildor Inglorion

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

Archive index

Tolkien and Inklings Forum
Middle-earth Mailing List
LoTR movie news
LoTR collectibles
Liv Tyler is Arwen
Elijah Wood is Frodo Baggins
Tolkien Middle-earth at Suite101
LoTR movies forum
All Forums

  Posted by Martin Read on June 25, 1999 at 06:35:25
In Reply to: Re: Gildor Inglorion posted by Michael Martinez on June 25, 1999 at 03:17:50:



: Tolkien's usage in this matter is not clear, and he sometimes uses words or idioms in non-standard ways. He used the word "fief" to refer to specific areas of Gondor, for instance, and many people have argued this means Gondor is somehow feudal. But in the material prepared for the Appendices Tolkien said the Gondorian regions were called by suza in Westron, the same word used as the name for the Shire, and he defined its meaning as "a sphere of occupation (as of the land claimed by a family or clan), of office, or business." (See page 45 in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH). "Fief" is not defined that way in the feudal sense. Tolkein seems to have had the non-feudal meaning of the word in mind when he referred to the "fiefs" of Gondor.

Fief is a linguistic variant of feudum. The connection is a strong one. Whatever the internal linguistic derivation, Tolkien's use of the word fief in the text of LOTR is a telling one.

Shire is a more loose term probably derived in most cases from the territory controlled by a tribe or dynastic leader in the early Anglo-Saxon period. Later used as an administrative unit. When England was feudalised (either before or after 1066) the shire was brought into that system. The Sherrif or Shire-reeve was the crown's administrator in the shire, but he had to work within the feudal society which existed there. In the fiefs of Gondor there isn't even the hint of a royal officer of such a type, only hereditary lords. Hereditary lords who furnish troops to the state in time of war - sounds rather feudal to me.



Tip: Earlier messages, if they are missing when you click on the links, may be in a lower-numbered archive. Edit the URL in your browser window to change the archive number. Ex. archive_02/ becomes archive_01/.
Tip: Click on the Tolkien and Inklings Forum link to followup to archived messages. You'll need to copy the text from this message and repost it in your new message.


The Tolkien and Inklings Forum is an SF-FANDOM Web site.

SF-FANDOM is a part of the Xenite.Org network.

Xenite.Org is home to Lord of the Rings movie news. The Tolkien and Inklings Forum is the Web's oldest fan-run forum dedicated to J.R.R. Tolkien.

Xenite.Org has been providing the most comprehensive Lord of the Rings movie news on the Web since February 1998.

Xenite.Org also brings you Xena Online Resources. Xena Online Resources is the Web's largest directory of Hercules and Xena-related content.

The Xenite.Org network is home to more than 100 science fiction and fantasy Web sites.



The Tolkien and Inklings Forum is an independent, moderated forum provided as a courtesy to fans of J.R.R. Tolkien and the Inklings, including C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, et. al., by Xenite.Org. Please be sure to review our Posting Policy before participating in our forums. This archive is provided as a courtesy of Xenite.Org and in no way implies or imparts any liability or obligation on our part to uphold or maintain the content provided herein. This message and other archived messages from Xenite.Org forums may contain content not necessarily endorsed, reviewed, or approved by Xenite.Org and/or its moderation staff. All opinions expressed in these archives are those of the original posters and do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of Xenite.Org, its owner or owners, moderators, administrators, and/or other volunteer staff or agents. All content is copyright the original poster unless otherwise noted. This page is copyright © 1997-2001 Michael L. Martinez. All rights reserved. No reproduction, electronic or otherwise, may be made without the express permission of the copyright holders, except as occurs in normal browser caching and search engine indexing. You may print one copy of this page for your personal use.