The White Council

Re: Gildor Inglorion

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : What I seek is a clear reference to a character who is : : indisputably (at least by me, grin) NOT of the house of which : : he said to be. I do not trust the phrase in "Of Tuor and His : : Coming to Gondolin" concerning Voronwë because we have no way : : of knowing what relationship Tolkien intended.

: I don't for one minute believe that Tolkien ever intended : Voronwë to be a desendant of Fingolfin. Excepting Galadriel the : family tree of the descendants of Finwë crystalized in the Lay : of Leithian (see HoMe III, p. 222).

I don't (yet) have an opinion on whether Voronwë was ever intended to be a descendant of Fingolfin. I consider the passage to be too ambiguous. "Lay of Leithian" disagrees with the final Eldarin genealogy as documented in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH in several details, not just in the exclusion of Galadriel. For one thing, Orodreth became the son of Angrod, and the sisters of Fingolfin and Finarfin are missing, as well as Fingolfin's other son and daughter.

: You can't prove Voronwë was a descendant of Fingolfin just : because Tolkien nowhere says he wasn't! By the same logic you : can prove that Farmer Maggot was an illegitiamte son of Bilbo : Baggins, or that Ghan-buri-Ghan was a son of Radagast the : Brown.

I think you misunderstand me. I merely showed that that passage is ambiguous (or attempted to do so -- those late-night messages can sometimes leave something to be desired). The passage is insufficient to show that "of the house of ..." is itself ambiguous.

: But all this is irrelevant to the lineage of Gildor, who was : born in Valnor. We know all the descendants of Finarfin: Finrod : (never married, died childless), Angrod (married, one Valinor : born son: Arothir-Orodreth), Aegnor (never married, died : childless, according to the Athrabeth), Galadriel (married, one : Middle-earth born daughter).

: That's it! There is no way Gildor can be a descendant of : Finarfin and born in Valinor.

My point was that Gildor was originally a different character from what he became in the Second Edition.

: Yes, I know Michael, you have some idea about Finrod being : released from Mandos, marrying whats-her-name-ië and producing : children from whom Gildor could have been descended.

: But even so, Gildor would have been Gil-Galad's heir, which he : wasn't.

Why would he have been Gil-galad's heir? The problem with Gildor becoming the heir of Gil-galad is that he would be from an elder line. He could, perhaps, have established his own kingdom, but if he didn't desire that he didn't need to.

Not that I want to defend a speculation which, in this context, is no more authoritative than an assertion concerning Elrond's love of bats. But Gildor doesn't necessarily have to be excluded from the Finwean genealogy, even though he doesn't appear. He is, as I said previously, enigmatic. Tolkien may actually have decided to leave him that way.

Tolkien's statement about Elrond being the last remaining male descendant of Finwe in Middle-earth is easily challenged anyway: Aragorn was a male descendant of Finwe. Leaving aside the Dunedain, the twin sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were also male descendants of Finwe. The statement was ill-considered.