Science fiction and fantasy: Xenite.Org -- Worlds of Imagination on the Web!

The White Council

Re: Religions in Middle-earth...

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

Archive index

Tolkien and Inklings Forum
Middle-earth Mailing List
LoTR movie news
LoTR collectibles
Liv Tyler is Arwen
Elijah Wood is Frodo Baggins
Tolkien Middle-earth at Suite101
LoTR movies forum
All Forums

  Posted by Goodgulf on June 26, 1999 at 14:11:22
In Reply to: Re: Religions in Middle-earth... posted by Michael Martinez on June 26, 1999 at 02:12:24:



Last night I tried to post another note (a sort of addendum to my previous one), but something went wrong, and now my long dissertation is kaput! Most of you will be happy about that - it was long winded and pompous.

Basically I mentioned Adam and Eve in Eden and that they had no need of religion or ritual since "God" walked with them in the garden. There is no mention of temples or how the people worshipped until after the time of Noah and the Flood. I suppose that theologists could argue the point, but as I read it, God walked with Adam and Eve in a physical sense. If not physically, then in some way that was apparently "real". Adam didn't need faith to know that God was real or a temple in which to worship Him. Why would he when God visits him every day to see how he's doing. Sacrifices weren't mentioned until after the "Fall", so we can assume that such practices continued.

My point is that this reality of God (Illuvatar) that Adam had is similar to what the Elves must have experienced in the Blessed Realm. They came to Middle-Earth not needing "faith" or hope, since they had "lived" it and had seen it. As for Tolkien being disturbed by his mythology, I see no need for him to feel that way. The Two Tree story is no more fantastic than the Genesis account of the Tree of Life (or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil). It may be that Tolkien wanted to draw parallels to the Bible in the same way that the Gilgamesh Epic recounts the Great Flood, indicating to me (though not others) that the Bible account and the Sumarian account spring (possibly) from a common ancient source. So in the Bible we have a Tree of Knowledge and in the LOTR we have a Tree of Light. From a metaphorical point of view they are the same (Light=Knowledge). And Eden was closed to men after the Fall, and might just as well have been removed from the earth, just as Tolkien does with the Blessed Realm.

I don't want to make too much of this. It's only speculation, and of course from a Christian perspective the Elves wouldn't be the first born. And Tolkien takes some rather complex theology and looks at it from a new angle, and actually makes more sense than many theologians.

I didn't know that he had modified his mythology to make the Valar more like angels. But the modification doesn't surprise me, considering the number of revisions to the whole mythos that he did during his lifetime.

I can recall a number of years ago that some conservative Chrsitians were calling to have LOTR burned, since in their eyes it was a demon inspired work. Of course most of them had never read it, and they had confused Tolkien's book with the very popular Dungeons and Dragons (which owes so much to Tolkien's creation). To many, Tolkien's book and D&D were one and the same. I hope that view has changed over the years. I haven't read or heard any complaints lately, but I'm curious to know if any fundamentalist churches are still trying to have LOTR banned?



Tip: Earlier messages, if they are missing when you click on the links, may be in a lower-numbered archive. Edit the URL in your browser window to change the archive number. Ex. archive_02/ becomes archive_01/.
Tip: Click on the Tolkien and Inklings Forum link to followup to archived messages. You'll need to copy the text from this message and repost it in your new message.


The Tolkien and Inklings Forum is an SF-FANDOM Web site.

SF-FANDOM is a part of the Xenite.Org network.

Xenite.Org is home to Lord of the Rings movie news. The Tolkien and Inklings Forum is the Web's oldest fan-run forum dedicated to J.R.R. Tolkien.

Xenite.Org has been providing the most comprehensive Lord of the Rings movie news on the Web since February 1998.

Xenite.Org also brings you Xena Online Resources. Xena Online Resources is the Web's largest directory of Hercules and Xena-related content.

The Xenite.Org network is home to more than 100 science fiction and fantasy Web sites.



The Tolkien and Inklings Forum is an independent, moderated forum provided as a courtesy to fans of J.R.R. Tolkien and the Inklings, including C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, et. al., by Xenite.Org. Please be sure to review our Posting Policy before participating in our forums. This archive is provided as a courtesy of Xenite.Org and in no way implies or imparts any liability or obligation on our part to uphold or maintain the content provided herein. This message and other archived messages from Xenite.Org forums may contain content not necessarily endorsed, reviewed, or approved by Xenite.Org and/or its moderation staff. All opinions expressed in these archives are those of the original posters and do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of Xenite.Org, its owner or owners, moderators, administrators, and/or other volunteer staff or agents. All content is copyright the original poster unless otherwise noted. This page is copyright © 1997-2001 Michael L. Martinez. All rights reserved. No reproduction, electronic or otherwise, may be made without the express permission of the copyright holders, except as occurs in normal browser caching and search engine indexing. You may print one copy of this page for your personal use.