The White Council

Re: Feudal discussion: new material? demographics?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: It is my understanding that a grea number of essays concerning linguistic matters remain unpublished. These essays have been turned over to a small group of linguists who, I think, are publishing the results of their research in Vinyar Tengwar (which has a Web site that is listed on my TALK ABOUT TOLKIEN page, see below). I have asked Carl Hostetter if there will ever be a full book but he hasn't responded.

: : Another point: do you both think demographics are relevent in : : any way (and what way) in this feudal discussion??? Any insight : : about european demographic evolution at the turn of the fifth : : century, and possible links to the fall of the western R.E. and : : the raise of feudal societies??

: I think a demographic analysis might prove useful, but as detailed as Martin and I get in these discussions, we really are only scratching the surface. I think it would require a formal argument, perhaps extremely complex, to show any real relevance. My gut feeling is that an immense amount of analysis of Tolkien's sources has really sort of been shunted aside in favor of traditional criticism.

: I've never been able to acquire of Tom Shippey's ROAD TO MIDDLE-EARTH, but though I'm on record as disagreeing with his Rohirrim = Anglo-Saxons equation (and he doesn't make the literal identification many people assert, but argues rather for a "poetic" identification), his analysis -- based on what I've seen of the man in a JRRT biography and what other people have told me -- may be unique in that it tries to look at historical models for Tolkien's world. Even Lin Carter's A LOOK BEHIND THE LORD OF THE RINGS doesn't do that -- it just looks at literary sources.

: If anyone were ever to actually prove or disprove in a formal way the degree of medievality in Tolkien, I think it would require a book-length argument. I'm not prepared to write one myself.

: : All that said, my gut feeling is that a demographic analysis of Europe, based on knowledge freely available when Tolkien was writing about Middle-earth, could be used to determine how closely he modelled his peoples on European cultures.

> I get kind of worked up when I hear that a small group of people sits on something of common interest and will not share it. The feudalism discussion is interesting, I threaten once again to become involved. However, for now, I can only provide a link to a great scholar's homepage, he has much knowledge of the fifth century- actually he has written a book named "Fifth Century Gaul, a crisis of identity?", his name is Hugh Elton, and he lists sources for his others to use. :-) Palle