The White Council

Re: Hereditary Principalities (reposted)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : Or Dor-en Ernil could be the land ruled by the Heir : : : : Presumptive to the throne, as Wales was to the British : : : : monarchy or Asturias to the Castillian/Spanish monarchy.

: : : Perhaps, but that strikes me as being way too close to an : : : English model for Gondor. There is no mention of any prince : : : of Numenor being invested with lands (or a title like Prince : : : of Wales) and so the custom is, I think, highly unlikely.

: : It was a widespread custom in Europe - The Dauphin (Lord of the : : Dauphine) of France, King of the Romans for The Holy Roman : : Empire and in the latter days of Byzantium the Emperor had : : often served as Despot of the Morea beforehand.

: But there are no obvious connections between Tolkien's Numenorean governments and the governments of Medieval Europe. Hence, you cannot simply say, "Well, they did it in Europe so we can assume they did it in Middle-earth."

I don't assume anything, I merely put forward a possible origin for the name Dor-en-Ernil, based on parallels with the real world. As for connections - hereditary monarchy in a pre-industrial society, there are two straight away.

: Aldarion, as King's Heir in Numenor, had no lands assigned to him (although he WAS made leader of the foresters or something like that). The Numenorean model is all that we have to go on.

: : : But your assuming there would be no revenues if Ithilien were : : : restored by Faramir, and there is no reason to assume that at : : : all. Faramir could be Prince of Ithilien and still sending : : : revenues to Minas Tirith.

: : Not really. I would expect there to be some revenue going to : : the crown from Ithilien following restoration of the region, : : however, for the reasons given earlier, this revenue would be : : less because of the need to support the prince and his court. : : The point I was making was that this loss of revenue would be : : in the future, in the short term Aragorn sacrificed nothing in : : giving his gift. Indeed Aragorn could look forward to an : : extension of state control to such regions as Harondor, The : : Brown Lands, The area around Rauros/Argonath, the lands west of : : the Lefnui and Enedwaith - which would more than compensate for : : the partial loss of Ithilien.

: You're assuming that Faramir would HAVE a court (and that it would require support in the way a medieval lord's retinue required support).

As I said earlier whatever the form of society, a prince, if his title is not empty bombast, would need a court and retinue to support the duties - administrative, financial and juridical which we must assume he had. Even the tyrranus of a classical Greek city had a council and some henchmen (not to mention mercenary troops and a few pet philosophers) to support.

Faramir's governance of Ithilien does not appear to be feudal. In THE NEW SHADOW whatshisname's son (sorry -- without the books I'm terrible with names) is serving with the royal fleet in Pelargir. If Beregond's family were really in a feudal relationship with Faramir, his grandson should be in the service of the Prince of Ithilien, and not in the royal navy.

Not necessarily, he may have been a younger son, or if the eldest, may have had a free hand until he inherited his father's land, and therfore duties to the Prince. Or he could have provided a proxy for any feudal armed service he owed, or could have paid a fee (scutage) to avoid presenting himself in person for the feudal hosting. Alternatively if Beregond was not been given land at all this would free his offspring entirely, other than ties of patronage. Indeed he may have obtained his position in the navy through the patronage of the prince.

: : : The absence of suitable land to provide compensation for a : : : dispossessed family doesn't imply they don't exist. : : : Furthermore, there is no indication that Gondor lost : : : significant revenues (or any, for that matter, though common : : : sense suggests SOME must have been lost) to the local : : : lordships.

: : But the absence of any hint of major compensation or of : : friction over the ceding of Calenardon suggests the absence of : : a princely family.

: At the time of Cirion's gift, yes, it suggests the absence of a princely family. The land was already heavily depopulated. What would it cost Gondor to cede a virtually empty region? There was essentially no revenue base for ANYONE at the time.

: I cannot argue that there MUST have been a princely family -- only that there could at one time have been one.

Admitted.