The White Council

Re: The Soldiers of Ithilien

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

Your title has started my poor old brain off with the old victorian song:

"We are the soldiers of The Queen, my love - The Queen my love...."

Now I can't seem to get rid of it!

: [snippage]

: : : But there are no obvious connections between Tolkien's : : : Numenorean governments and the governments : : : of Medieval Europe. Hence, you cannot simply say, "Well, they : : : did it in Europe so we can assume they did : : : it in Middle-earth." : : : : I don't assume anything, I merely put forward a possible origin : : for the name Dor-en-Ernil, based on parallels with the real : : world. As for connections - hereditary monarchy in a : : pre-industrial society, there are two straight away.

: Yes, but you are limiting yourself to feudal European examples. For all we know, Tolkien had David and Solomon in mind when he devised the Numenorean monarchies.

I admit that the use of a parcel of land to keep the heir apparent occupied is largely Mediaeval, but in defence most monarchies attempted to give the successor a taste of rule before reaching the throne. The Caesar of Later Rome often was given a specific area to govern (eg. Julian the Apostate in Gaul) and the heir of Ptolemaic Egypt was often given either Cyrenaica or Cyprus.

: [snippage]

: : : You're assuming that Faramir would HAVE a court (and that it : : : would require support in the way a medieval lord's retinue : : : required support). : : : : As I said earlier whatever the form of society, a prince, if : : his title is not empty bombast, would need a court and retinue : : to support the duties - administrative, financial and juridical : : which we must assume he had. Even the tyrranus of a classical : : Greek city had a council and some henchmen (not to mention : : mercenary troops and a few pet philosophers) to support.

: The tyrannus of the Greek city, however, was the ruler of the nation, not of just a part of it. We can certainly agree that the Captain of the White Company must have been working (and probably living) close to Faramir. I will concede that he probably indeed had some sort of "court", but the costs of such a "court" would not necessarily consume the bulk of the potential revenues of a fully developed Ithilien.

The princes and lords of Gondor (as far as we can tell) were the provincial government for their particular region. As such they probably had resposibility for raising taxes (part of which they must have passed on to the government) which suggests a financial beaurocracy - even of the most basic kind. They also must have had responsibility for law and order and the maintenance of courts; also administration of any public works such as roads and bridges, harbours and fortifications. For all this responsibility a certain injection of money would be necessary.

: : : Faramir's governance of Ithilien does not appear to be : : : feudal. In THE NEW SHADOW whatshisname's son (sorry -- : : : without the books I'm terrible with names) is serving with : : : the royal fleet in Pelargir. If Beregond's family were : : : really in a feudal relationship with Faramir, his grandson : : : should be in the service of the Prince of Ithilien, and not : : : in the royal navy. : : : : Not necessarily, he may have been a younger son, or if the : : eldest, may have had a free hand until he inherited his : : father's land, and therfore duties to the Prince. Or he could : : have provided a proxy for any feudal armed service he owed, or : : could have paid a fee (scutage) to avoid presenting himself in : : person for the feudal hosting. Alternatively if Beregond was : : not been given land at all this would free his offspring : : entirely, other than ties of patronage. Indeed he may have : : obtained his position in the navy through the patronage of the : : prince.

: [snip]

: Actually, as I think about this, I believe the protagonist of THE NEW SHADOW is the younger son of Beregond (or that younger son's son). If the captaincy of the White Company passed to Beregond's heir, it would rightly pass to Bergil. I wish I had THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH here to check. :)

: Anyway, the case is not as clear-cut as I originally thought. We could, I suppose, explore the possible extrapolations concerning the men in Faramir's company in Ithilien (the Rangers of Ithilien). They were all drawn from families which had once lived in Ithilien. Were they giving some sort of hereditary service? I think the book says that Denethor recruited them from those families.

Whatever their duties at the time of TWOTR the Rangers would have provided an instant cadre of people both loyal to Faramir and keen on settling in Ithilien. They would probably go on to form the elite of the newly re-established province.

: This is very frustrating for me. I did not expect to stay in Florida this long and therefore did not bring my books with me. Although I can only spend a limited amount of time online, I've obviously had more time for discussion than I anticipated.

I'm still trying to get enough time to put forward my ideas (doubtless contrversial) on the break up of Arnor, but I seem to be pressed for time at present.