The White Council

Re: Hereditary Principalities (reposted)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: >>>Snipped a lot of very interesting discussion<<<<< : : As I said earlier whatever the form of society, a prince, if his title is not empty bombast, would need a court and retinue to support the duties - administrative, financial and juridical which we must assume he had. Even the tyrranus of a classical Greek city had a council and some henchmen (not to mention mercenary troops and a few pet philosophers) to support. : >>>Just adding my bit to a discussion that, though interesting, seems insoluble; even the Germanic princes at least from the Celtic Iron Age and onwards had a retinue of armed warriors- the comitatus/hird/following and a larger than usual household to support this. The income for this was derived from a surplus of labour in control of/owing the prince revenue and gifts for mercenary service of other lords and romans or for keeping the peace with these.

: : Faramir's governance of Ithilien does not appear to be feudal. In THE NEW SHADOW whatshisname's son (sorry -- without the books I'm terrible with names) is serving with the royal fleet in Pelargir. If Beregond's family were really in a feudal relationship with Faramir, his grandson should be in the service of the Prince of Ithilien, and not in the royal navy.

: : Not necessarily, he may have been a younger son, or if the eldest, may have had a free hand until he inherited his father's land, and therfore duties to the Prince. Or he could have provided a proxy for any feudal armed service he owed, or could have paid a fee (scutage) to avoid presenting himself in person for the feudal hosting. Alternatively if Beregond was not been given land at all this would free his offspring entirely, other than ties of patronage. Indeed he may have obtained his position in the navy through the patronage of the prince.

: : : : : The absence of suitable land to provide compensation for a : : : : : dispossessed family doesn't imply they don't exist. : : : : : Furthermore, there is no indication that Gondor lost : : : : : significant revenues (or any, for that matter, though common : : : : : sense suggests SOME must have been lost) to the local : : : : : lordships.

: : : : But the absence of any hint of major compensation or of : : : : friction over the ceding of Calenardon suggests the absence of : : : : a princely family.

: : : At the time of Cirion's gift, yes, it suggests the absence of a princely family. The land was already heavily depopulated. What would it cost Gondor to cede a virtually empty region? There was essentially no revenue base for ANYONE at the time.

: : : I cannot argue that there MUST have been a princely family -- only that there could at one time have been one.

: : Admitted. : >>>The princely family, if any, may have died out and their few remaining subjects may have been integrated in Rohir society- I feel that there is a lot about Rohan and its early years that we do not know. I personally believe that there must have been a princely family there as examples from our history points in the direction that, as realms decline with time, government of provinces tend to grow hereditary- as most other professions. The western roman empire is a classical example of this. : ;-) Neithan

I have long thought that some of the remaining Gondorian provincials might have integrated themselves into the new set up in Calenardon. After all the peoples were in a state of amity and Northmen had been integrated into Gondorian society on previous occasions. Indeed Theoden's mother (grandmother?) was a noble Gondorian who integrated into Rohirric society.