The White Council

Re: Dúnadan Royal Councils

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: I wonder where Michael wanted to go with that, possibly into : wagering a guess as to the composition of such?

So much has happened in my life since I wrote those messages that I'm not sure I could figure out what I had in mind. I was thinking about analyzing the forms of goverment, possibly, which are denoted in the texts.

: It seems to me that the councils of the rulers in the Realms in : Exile consisted of some, possibly all, the leading men of the : realm. Whether the post was hereditary or the councillor was : chosen by the ruler, I do not know, I guess a mixture. possibly : the ruler would name councillors from some familys before : others but only if they deserved it, otherwise he would chose : from others. Also, some families must have died out or declined : in wealth and importance while other would rise. What about : these?

Unfortunately, Tolkien never addressed the Dunadan societies with the intensity and detail he turned upon the hobbits'.

: And did guild-representatives advise too? if such existed (by : the way, if we could prove the existence of guilds it would be : a major point in supporting Martin's feudalism ideas).

Well, there is mention of one guild in Tolkien's writings: Numenor's Venturers' Guild, which is nothing (in general description) like the merchant guilds of medieval Europe.

I'm not sure of whether the guilds would be regarded as feudal organizations, although traditional Master-Journeyman-Apprentice arrangements (which may exist independently of guilds and are still used by some professions today) would be regarded as feudal -- at least where the Master supported a shop with one or more journeymen and/or apprentices.

: So, what pover did the council have? It seems to me that they : would be mere advisors and that the ruler would have no : obligation to adhere to their councel, but could they lay down : their councellor-status to veto him or what? and how would they : rule in case of the ruler's demise with no apparent heir? : (Hurin warden of the keys?? what status??) : Comments?

Well, if we must guess at these matters, my guess is that a dynamic history unfolded. Power would have waxed and waned for a number of purposes. Also, Tolkien said the Numenorean kings were not the makers of law. If they did not make the laws, then who did? The councils are an obvious choice, but are they the only one? Did the Numenoreans perhaps inherit and enlarge the Folkmoot custom of the Folk of Haleth (did the Bëorians and Marachians actually have similar customs which were never mentioned in any stories?)?

The ancient framework of law which the Kings of Gondor and Arnor worked within may have been derived from several sources (in real history, this is usually the way bodies of law develop -- I suspect Tolkien envisioned something similar).