The White Council

Re: Dúnadan Royal Councils

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : I'm not sure of whether the guilds would be regarded as : : feudal organizations, although traditional : : Master-Journeyman-Apprentice arrangements (which may exist : : independently of guilds and are still used by some : : professions today) would be regarded as feudal -- at least : : where the Master supported a shop with one or more journeymen : : and/or apprentices. : It is generally assumed that the guilds of cities is a way for : the Burghers/citizens to try and counter the power of feudal : nobility, just as the seperate laws for citizens were. : : I never got into the feudalism discussion, but I wanted to try : and find traces of guild structures in cities and manoralism in : the countryside. If such could be found, i would support : Martin's feudalism thesis.

There is no evidence for manorialism in Middle-earth. There is evidence for plantation-style farming in the Shire, however (the pipeweed farms). Otho Sackville-Baggins bought up a lot of properties in Southfarthing. Plantations are (I think) viewed as an aesthetic attempt to revive romantic notions of manorialism while addressing practical needs for increasing crop production and managing growing slave populations.

: : If they did not make the laws, then who did? The councils : : are an obvious choice, but are they the only one? Did the : : Numenoreans perhaps inherit and enlarge the Folkmoot custom : : of the Folk of Haleth (did the Bëorians and Marachians : : actually have similar customs which were never mentioned in : : any stories?)? : : Well, they hold a general meeting when deciding for or against : supporting the Noldor soon after their arrival in Beleriand. : One could possibly percieve that as a kind of Thing/Althing as : we know from ancient Norse/germanic sources, I believe bthat : Tolkien modelled the Marachians, at least, on these and they : would then have had a Thing. Just as we hear of their tradition : of young men going to take service in grand "hirds" : (Followings/guards a'la the Huscairls) in this case of the : Elven kings where most is to be accomplished and most renown is : to be won. This too is a germanic/Norse tradition, try read the : story of Rolf Krake and his Hird, it is great- especially the : "Bjarkemål" which almost gives a codex for the Viking Age : hirdmen to follow and which King Olav had recited to his hird : before Stiklestad in 1030- oups, I am rambling.

The Noldor maintained armies, however. Tolkien doesn't mention anything like a hird in Hithlum or the March of Maedhros. Some people might reasonably argue that the various battalions of Gondolin (detailed in the very ancient "The Fall of Gondolin") might be comparable to such forces, or perhaps the Anglo-Saxon fyrds (sp?) -- and that story dates from the "Mythology for England" period, so an Anglo-Saxon connection is not unreasonable.

The departure of young men to serve in the armies or retinues of foreign kings, however, is a quite ancient practice and is by no means a northern invention. Greek mythology and history aboundswith stories of heroes and soldiers serving in foreign armies (Jason and the Argonauts, Xenophon's Ten Thousand Greeks for example).

Also, the Council of the Edain (that's my name, not Tolkien's) was held by the Bëorians and Marachians together. It was an unusual event, although I concede I had not thought of it when posting that message last night. It may indeed be an indication of a folkmoot tradition among the two tribes similar to that of the Folk of Haleth.

: P. S. Welcome home, hope it was not too hard on you.

Thanks. It's good to have it behind me.