The White Council

Re: Dúnadan Royal Councils

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : I'm not sure of whether the guilds would be regarded as : : : feudal organizations, although traditional : : : Master-Journeyman-Apprentice arrangements (which may exist : : : independently of guilds and are still used by some : : : professions today) would be regarded as feudal -- at least : : : where the Master supported a shop with one or more journeymen : : : and/or apprentices. : : It is generally assumed that the guilds of cities is a way for : : the Burghers/citizens to try and counter the power of feudal : : nobility, just as the seperate laws for citizens were. : : : : I never got into the feudalism discussion, but I wanted to try : : and find traces of guild structures in cities and manoralism in : : the countryside. If such could be found, i would support : : Martin's feudalism thesis.

: There is no evidence for manorialism in Middle-earth. There is evidence for plantation-style farming in the Shire, however (the pipeweed farms). Otho Sackville-Baggins bought up a lot of properties in Southfarthing. Plantations are (I think) viewed as an aesthetic attempt to revive romantic notions of manorialism while addressing practical needs for increasing crop production and managing growing slave populations.

True, I just mentioned it as another way of looking at the problem.

: : : If they did not make the laws, then who did? The councils : : : are an obvious choice, but are they the only one? Did the : : : Numenoreans perhaps inherit and enlarge the Folkmoot custom : : : of the Folk of Haleth (did the Bëorians and Marachians : : : actually have similar customs which were never mentioned in : : : any stories?)? : : : : Well, they hold a general meeting when deciding for or against : : supporting the Noldor soon after their arrival in Beleriand. : : One could possibly percieve that as a kind of Thing/Althing as : : we know from ancient Norse/germanic sources, I believe bthat : : Tolkien modelled the Marachians, at least, on these and they : : would then have had a Thing. Just as we hear of their tradition : : of young men going to take service in grand "hirds" : : (Followings/guards a'la the Huscairls) in this case of the : : Elven kings where most is to be accomplished and most renown is : : to be won. This too is a germanic/Norse tradition, try read the : : story of Rolf Krake and his Hird, it is great- especially the : : "Bjarkemål" which almost gives a codex for the Viking Age : : hirdmen to follow and which King Olav had recited to his hird : : before Stiklestad in 1030- oups, I am rambling.

: The Noldor maintained armies, however. Tolkien doesn't mention anything like a hird in Hithlum or the March of Maedhros. Some people might reasonably argue that the various battalions of Gondolin (detailed in the very ancient "The Fall of Gondolin") might be comparable to such forces, or perhaps the Anglo-Saxon fyrds (sp?) -- and that story dates from the "Mythology for England" period, so an Anglo-Saxon connection is not unreasonable.

In U.T. Hurin rides of to the general muster with his household knights. This I interpret as a chieftain riding of with his Hird. I so wish some of the never Danish/German theories of germanic society had been translated- it is so intriguing and points in a direction that has been lauded for many years- that the ancient writers of history and sagas in the Germanic tribes (and I count the Scandinavians as germanic as Denmark, S. Norway, S. Sweden, and N. Germany (Slesvig-Holsten/Schleswig-Holstein) seems to have been the cradle of the culture and ethnic group later called Germanic) were closer to the truth than we have believed for years

: The departure of young men to serve in the armies or retinues of foreign kings, however, is a quite ancient practice and is by no means a northern invention. Greek mythology and history aboundswith stories of heroes and soldiers serving in foreign armies (Jason and the Argonauts, Xenophon's Ten Thousand Greeks for example).

This, I am aware of, the germanic connection is just the most obvious to make as the Edain are in so may ways like them- the migrations, the way of life, the names, their appearance (the description of the house of Marach might as well be an author from the classical world describing Germans), the obviuos name tie-in "northmen", did I forget any. I cannot help intuitively thinking of the Norse- Germanic tribes when I think of the Edain, especially the Marachians (I guess the others are more Celtic in nature, but the Marachians dominates the Edain in my perception).

: Also, the Council of the Edain (that's my name, not Tolkien's) was held by the Bëorians and Marachians together. It was an unusual event, although I concede I had not thought of it when posting that message last night. It may indeed be an indication of a folkmoot tradition among the two tribes similar to that of the Folk of Haleth.

I guessed that you had forgotten it. What we need to do is looking whether there were any others like it, in all ages; the council in Esgaroth (the people seemed to have much power there)? Muster of Rohan- Rohan should actually give us a very "true" view of the ways of the Marachians so it may be worthwhile looking at their court, the glimpses we get of Eotheod society? Woodmen, Beornings? All these should provide us with additional information. Rambling again, byproduct of studying at a humanist faculty and discussing a subjet I love.

: : P. S. Welcome home, hope it was not too hard on you.

: Thanks. It's good to have it behind me.

No comment really as I do not know what happened- just wanted to give some consolation. ;-) Neithan Turambar