The White Council

Re: Edainic customs (was Re: Dúnadan Royal Councils)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : In U.T. Hurin rides of to the general muster with his : : : : household knights. This I interpret as a chieftain riding : : : : of with his Hird...

: : : I wouldn't call them knights, but you're right. The : : : comparison to a Hird is justifiable. I'd forgotten the : : : reference.

: : I would not call them knights either but Tolkien does

: Perhaps we should compare passages. Here is the one I thought you were referring to:

:

 :   There came a bright morning in the month of Lothron when Turin :   was roused by sudden trumpets; and running to the doors he :   saw in the court a great press of men on foot and on horse, :   and all fully armed as for war.  There also stood Hurin, and :   he spoke to the men and gave commands; and Turin learned that :   they were setting out that day for Barad Eithel.  These were :   Hurin's guards and household men; but all the men of his land :   were summoned.  Some had gone ahead already with Huor his :   father's brother; and many others would join the Lord of :   Dor-lomin on the road, and go behind his banner to the great :   muster of the King. : 

You are right.

: : : Actually, the Marachians are more Celtic-like in some ways, : : : and the Bëorians and Haladin are more Germanic in some ways. : : : The Celts were better organized than the ancient Germans, : : : and had large walled towns, etc. The Germans, on the other : : : hand, often lived in freesteads and this tradition was : : : maintained well into the Medieval era by the Anglo-Saxons, : : : the contintental Saxons, and the Scandinavians. : : : : Conceded, I guess I was thinking most of their personal : : descriptions, which I will maintain is very like Germans.

: I, too, envision the Bëorians in a "Celtic" or "Pseudo-Celtic" fashion, for personal imagery, but I'm afraid it just doesn't hold up under formal scrutiny. :)

Why not? we are talking Marachians, the tall blond people with blue eyes and burning spirit are we not? is that not very like to the Germans of Tacitus " The eyes are hard and blue, the hair red-blond, and the body large and only suited for storm (assault)", I think that Marachians are also mentioned as being most effective in the short run. Further, both peoples are famous for their resistance against cold. I suppose weapons and armour are also much alike when they enter our tale.

: : : The Council of Esgaroth? They were, so far as I know, just a : : : town council, elected from the burghers (very Medieval, I : : : suppose). : : : : I agree, but I was trying to find other other aspects of : : "Middle-men" society to give us impressions of what the : : original Edain one was like.

: The closest thing I can think of is Beorn's homestead. It sounds very much like the kind of homes the Bëorians and Folk of Haleth possessed. But that tells us nothing of the governmental structure of the Beornings and Woodmen of the Third Age.

No nothing does does it? But a yearly moot/ting would suit them would it not? parallel to Beorn's dancing with bears?

: : : The Muster of Rohan is a standing, professional army of : : : trained and well-equipped soldiers that drilled on a regular : : : basis. There is in fact little resemblance between Rohan and : : : the Marachians, the latter having lived under Elvish dominion : : : and being incorporated into Elvish culture (Eldarin culture : : : at that). : : : : I mostly agree to this.

By the way, what economic base did Rohan have for maintaining such a large force of heavy cavalry? Historically that requires a very large base. Would it not be logical to see the Muster as a half-professional force training perhaps 40? days a year? and only smaller forces like Eomer's own Eored and theoden's huscairls as standing forces? This would be much cheaper.

: : : The Rohirrim were the product of their historical evolution. : : : Their distant ancestors were not particularly associated : : : with horses -- that aspect of their culture arose because : : : they were derived mostly from the surviving cavalry of the : : : Kingdom of Rhovanion. : : : : Well I also seem to remeber an essay of the names of Dwarves : : that evolved into one dealing with the relations between : : Dwarves and Northmen, the horse-connection was there already : : back then (which is also somewhat Germanic as the Romans : : employed lots of german auxillia troops of cavalry or mixed : : cavalry/infantry- actually there is a parallel here; a : : technological highly developed culture with a small army of : : heavy infantry supporting and employing a lower agricultural : : warrior-culture).

: You're probably thinking of the essay "Of Dwarves and Men" in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH.

:

 :   ...At that time the migrations of Men from teh East and South :   had brought advance-guards into Beleriand; but they were not :   in great numbers, though further east in Eriador and Rhovanion :   (especially in the northern parts) their kindred must already :   have occupied much of the land.  There dealings between Men :   and the Longbeards must soon have begun.  For the Longbeards, :   though the proudest of the seven kindreds, were also the wisest :   and most farseeing.  Men held them in awe and were eager to :   learn from them; and the Longbeards were very willing to use :   Men for their own purposes.  Thus there grew up in those :   regions the economy, later characteristic of the dealings of :   Dwarves and Men (including Hobbits): Men became the chief :   providers of food, as herdsmen, shepherds, and land-tillers, :   which the Dwarves exchanged for work as builders, roadmakers, :   miners, and the makers of things of craft, from useful tools :   to weapons and arms and many other things of great cost and :   skill.  To the great profit of the Dwarves.  Not only to be :   reckoned in hours of labour, though in early times the Dwarves :   must have obtained goods that were the product of greater and :   longer toil than the things or services that they gave in :   exchange -- before Men became wiser and developed skills of :   their own.  The chief advantage to them was their freedom to :   proceed unhindered with their own work and to refine their :   arts, especially in metallurgy, to the marvellous skill which :   these reached before the decline and dwindling of the Khazad. : 

: A little further on:

:

 :   ...During the War of the Jewels and the Siege of Angband, when :   Morgoth needed all his strength, these attacks ceased; but when :   Morgoth fell and Angband was destroyed hosts of the Orks fled :   eastwards seeking homes.  They were now masterless and without :   any general leadership, but they were well-armed and very :   numerous, cruel, savage, and reckless in assault.  In the :   battles that followed the Dwarves were outnumbered, and though :   they were the most reputable warriors of all the Speaking :   Peoples they were glad to make alliance with Men. : 

:

 :   The Men with whom they were thus associated were for the most :   part akin in race and language with the tall and mostly fair- :   haired people of the 'House of Hador', the most renowned and :   numerous of the Edain, who were allied with the Eldar in the :   War of the Jewels.  These Men, it seems, had come westward :   until faced by the Great Greenwood, and then had divided: :   some reaching the Anduin and passing thence northward up the :   Vales; some passing between the north-eaves of the Wood and :   the Ered Mithrin.  Only a small part of this people, already :   very numerous and divided into many tribes, had then passed on :   into Eriador and so come at last to Beleriand.  They were brave :   and loyal folk, truehearted, haters of Morgoth and his :   servants; and at first regarded the Dwarves askance, fearing :   that they were under the Shadow (as they said).  But they were :   glad of the alliance, for they were more vulnerable to the :   attacks of the Orcs: they dwelt largely in scattered homesteads :   and villages, and if they drew together into small townships :   they were poorly defended, at best by dikes and wooden fences. :   Also they were lightly armed, chiefly with bows, for they had :   little metal and the few smiths among them had no great skill. :   These things the Dwarves amended in return for one great :   service that Men could offer.  They were tamers of beasts and :   had learned the mastery of horses, and many were skilled and :   fearless riders.  These woudl often ride far afield as scouts :   and keep watch on movements of their enemies; and if the Orks :   dared to assemble in the open for some great raid, they would :   gather great force of horsed archers to surround them and :   destroy them.  In these ways the Alliance of Dwarves and Men :   in the North came early in the Second Age to command great :   strength, swift in attack and valiant and well-protected in :   defence, and there grew up in that region between Dwarves and :   men respect and esteem, and sometimes warm friendship. : 

: However, this society differs from that of the Rohirrim considerably: the many tribes, the lightly armed horse archers, the main function of the riders as scouts, the scattered homesteads, and the lack of emphasis on horses as being central to their culture, although the cavalry force required by the Alliance obviously took on a greater significance as time went by.

But would that not be a description of the Eotheod (Horse People?) in the early to mid Third Age? Or would they be only nomadic tribes who were later merged with the agricultural dwellers of the East Bight under Widugiva (spelling?) and in the wars that drove them from their homeland? ;-) Palle