The White Council

Re: Edainic customs (was Re: Dúnadan Royal Councils)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : I, too, envision the Bëorians in a "Celtic" or : : "Pseudo-Celtic" fashion, for personal imagery, but I'm afraid : : it just doesn't hold up under formal scrutiny. :)

: Why not? we are talking Marachians, the tall blond people with : blue eyes and burning spirit are we not? is that not very like : to the Germans of Tacitus " The eyes are hard and blue, the : hair red-blond, and the body large and only suited for storm : (assault)", I think that Marachians are also mentioned as being : most effective in the short run. Further, both peoples are : famous for their resistance against cold. : : I suppose weapons and armour are also much alike when they : enter our tale.

The Marachians appear to be the most sophisticated of the Edain, and the Celts were (at the height of their culture in pre-Roman Gaul) more sophisticated than the pagan Germans were. It's difficult to compare Celts and Germans since they peaked centuries apart and shared many cultural and probably ethnic origins anyway.

I don't recall the Marachians having any particular resistance to cold. They just sort of ended up in the northernmost regions.

: : The closest thing I can think of is Beorn's homestead. It : : sounds very much like the kind of homes the Bëorians and Folk : : of Haleth possessed. But that tells us nothing of the : : governmental structure of the Beornings and Woodmen of the : : Third Age.

: No nothing does does it? But a yearly moot/ting would suit them : would it not? parallel to Beorn's dancing with bears?

Maybe, but we don't know how widely scattered the Woodmen were. It was only in the last couple of years (I think) that I came to understand that there were Woodmen (or Men) dwelling north of Thranduil's kingdom in Mirkwood. I doubt this northern group was closely connected with the Woodmen of western Mirkwood, who were somehow associated (by Tolkien) with the Beornings, who themselves supposedly came from the mountains (well, Beorn is said to have come from the mountains). : By the way, what economic base did Rohan have for maintaining : such a large force of heavy cavalry? Historically that : requires a very large base. Would it not be logical to see the : Muster as a half-professional force training perhaps 40? days a : year? and only smaller forces like Eomer's own Eored and : theoden's huscairls as standing forces? This would be much : cheaper.

Some of the men served "for a term" and some served permanently, but Tolkien doesn't say how long the terms were. The Riders had to be trained and equipped. They all wore mail, they all possessed swords (or nearly all -- I don't know of the archer companies were armed with swords), and they were distinct from the local levies.

Eomer, it should be noted, served as an officer in the King's Host (the Muster of Rohan), and not as a hereditary lord. His title, Third Marshal of the Mark, appears to be similar to, say, "General of the Third Army". He was assigned the East-mark as an area of responsibilty under the King's military command, not as a fief.

   Marshal of the Mark (of Riddermark) was the highest military   rank and the title of the King's lieutenants (originally   three), commanders of the royal forces of fully equipped and   trained Riders.  The First Marshal's ward was the capital,   Edoras, and the adjacent King's Lands (including Harrowdale).   He commanded the Riders of the Muster of Edoras, drawn from   this ward, and from some parts of the West-mark and East-mark   for which Edoras was the most convenient place of assembly.   The Second and Third Marshals were assigned commands according   to the needs of the time.  In the beginning of the year 3019   the threat from Saruman was the most urgent, and the Second   Marshal, the King's son Theodred, had command over the West-   mark with his base at Helm's Deep; the Third Marshal, the   King's nephew Eomer, had as his ward the East-mark with his   base at his home, Aldburg in the Folde. 

"...were assigned commands according to the needs of the time" makes it clear that Eomer was not acting as a feudal vassal, but simply as an officer in the army. Erkenbrand appears to be a vassal of Theoden but is the relationship feudal? Erkenbrand's lordship may be hereditary without any personal obligation to the King, and only an obligation to remain a part of the kingdom and to help defend it.

In the past I have referred to the Riders of Rohan as professional because it appears -- from "The Battles of the Fords of Isen" -- that the militia forces were the local levies, from whom Theodred drew some reinforcements before the battles. But I suppose these "levies" could in fact be the true professionl soldiers, numbering fewer than the regular Riders, and the Riders were themselves militia forces led by a cadre of seasoned, full-time soldiers.

The problem with this view, I think, is that it implies the West-mark was very powerful, and yet it required one of the King's marshals and part of the King's army for its defense, so it doesn't really make sense. Theodred's regular soldiers were therefore the Riders of the Muster of the West-mark, an "army" under the king's command (just as the US' third army is under the command of the President of the United States). That this army was probably drawn mostly if not wholly from men of the West-mark implies only a convenience for rercuitment and bivouacking, perhaps.

The bottom line is we really don't know a great deal about the Rohirrim's economy, and whether they could have supported a standing army of 12,000+ Riders.

: : However, this society differs from that of the Rohirrim : : considerably: the many tribes, the lightly armed horse : : archers, the main function of the riders as scouts, the : : scattered homesteads, and the lack of emphasis on horses as : : being central to their culture, although the cavalry force : : required by the Alliance obviously took on a greater : : significance as time went by.

: But would that not be a description of the Eotheod (Horse : People?) in the early to mid Third Age?

I don't see how. The Eotheod arose from the remnant of the army of Rhovanion. We know virtually nothing of how that army was organized or constituted except that it possessed a cavalry force, of which some part survived the destruction of the kingdom.

: Or would they be only nomadic tribes who were later merged with : the agricultural dwellers of the East Bight under Widugiva : (spelling?) and in the wars that drove them from their : homeland?

Anybody's guess is as good as anyone else's, as far as I can tell.