The White Council

Re: Edainic customs (was Re: Dúnadan Royal Councils)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : I think that whilst the Hadorians/Marachians were the most : : organised (socially and militarily) of the Edain there is some : : indications that they were not the most sophisticated. : : : : Tolkien says that the Beorians were most like the Noldor of the : : Edain in their love of "Lore" and interest in craftsmanship. : : Furthermore he speaks of those Hadorians who physically : : resembled the Beorian stock as being the most inclined to : : poetry and craft amongst the Folk of Hador. : : This suggests that before the Beorians entered Beleriand they : : probably outshone the Hadorians in the cultural department.

: Well, that's a good point, although I tend to think of how Finrod found Bëor and his people sleeping in a crude camp. Of course, that doesn't really tell us much about how they lived when they weren't migrating. Still, the Bëorians seem to have raised sheep more than any other kinds of animals, whereas the Marachians raised horses and cattle. Are shepherds more sophisticated than cattle raisers?

: We know that Bëor and his people knew some form of music since Finrod heard them singing when he discovered them. Three is no mention of Marach's people singing or expressing any knowledge of music. Do we have enough evidence to deduce much about the cultural sophistication of these two peoples with respect to one another?

: This is a very interesting question (to me).

: : I imagine the Hadorians as a largely pastoral people (with : : "Many horses"), which would explain their well developed social : : and military organisation. Such folk need to live a more : : regimented existence than agrarian people as flocks and herds : : usually need to be moved around in a transhumance or fully or : : partially nomadic system of husbandry. This is illustrated by : : the Mongol decimal system. At a time when Europe had very : : loose military units of the "Lance" and "Conrois" both having a : : very variable number of men - the Mongols had fixed units of : : 10, 100, 1000, and 10000. : : : : I think of the Beorians as more settled agrarian people (though : : the Hadorians doubtless grew some crops). Their settlement : : punctuated by sporadic movements westward. Following the : : harvest an agricultural folk could "Up-sticks" and take their : : seed crop with them. I also see them as exploiting their : : settled areas for other raw materials, and producing metals, : : textiles etc, and probably engaging in trade with other men, : : Avari, and possibly Dwarves.

: Well, to some extent I can agree with you. But the Bëorians would not have settled in mineral-rich areas in either Eriador or Beleriand. They would have been almost entirely dependent on trade with the Dwarves for metals.

: : The Celts were most closely related (linguistically) with the : : Italic peoples including the Romans. This can be seen in : : equivalences such as Rex and Rix for king and Canis and Cuno- : : for dog. As you say the Celts were a sophisticated people - : : their metallurgical skills were superior to those of the : : classical civilisations. They seem to have invented : : case-hardened steel, iron helmets, ring mail (probably), the : : heavy plough, the scythe, and iron-rimmed wheels.

: Indeed. The Celtic connection with any of the Edain may be too strong in our minds for this reason. Tolkien may have envisioned a more Germanic allusion in them than Celtic after all.

There is no need for any one edainic group to be totally either Celtic or Germanic based. I believethat the Marachians were mostly Germanic while the Bëornians were probably more like Celts (was there not something with Celts and music/poetry as well?), but what about the second house? what were they? Michael, the passage claiming that the Marachians were "north-connected" is on P. 178f in Sil. it sounds thus: "..., for the people of Hador, being hardy to endure cold and long wandering, feared not at times to go far into the north and there keep watch on the movements of the Enemy. The men of the three houses throve and multiplied, but greatest among them was the house of Hador Goldenhead, peer of elven-lords. His people were of great stature, ready in mind, bold and steadfast, quick to anger and to laughter, mighty among the children of Ilúvatar in the youth of mankind. Yellow-haired they were for the most part, and blue-eyed;...." Now compare this to my quote from Tacitus, or sit down and read his Germania, it is great readin but the gist of it is what Tolkien here has put into The Silmarillion. ;-) Neithan Turambar