The White Council

Re: Istari, bombadil, departure of ringbearers

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : Firstly, what manner of creature is Tom Bombadil? It seams : : : clear that Mithrandir knows him and he is great in power in his : : : domain. Yet it is also clear that he is not one of the Istari : : : as he plays no part in the fight against Sauron besides helping : : : the Ringbearer and his companions through The Old Forest.

: : There is a lot of speculation about Bombadil. Tolkien said he should remain an enigma, as every world has those, so there is no "factual" answer. My own feeling is that, if he must be pidgeon-holed, then he must originally have been a spirit like the Valar and Maiar, an Ainu, who entered Arda for his own reasons and remained there.

: : : Secondly, Saruman was deemed to be the wisest and greatest of : : : the Istari before the downfall and eventual uprising of : : : Mithrandir. How, then, is Saruman so easily turned to evil by : : : Sauron through the Orthanc-Stone?

: : Saruman had already become evil through his own choice by the time he dared to look into the Stone. In a discussion on the Palantiri in UNFINISHED TALES, however, it's indicated that Sauron, having the greater power, was able to dominate Saruman because Saruman had no legal or moral right to be using the Stone and therefore was vulnerable to any force of will Sauron brought against him. Aragorn, as the rightful owner of the Stone, has some protection against Sauron's will.

: : : Lastly, it is said that Bilbo, Frodo and later, supposedly, : : : Samwise and Gimli were all mortals that were allowed to pass : : : over the sea into the west and The Undying Lands. Would the : : : Valar have been happy with this arrangement? And would these : : : mortals have been granted immortality such-like to the Elves : : : upon entering the Undying Lands?

: : They would not have been granted immortality. Such was beyond the authority of the Valar. Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam's souls had all been wounded by the One Ring, and they were permitted to pass over Sea to spend their last years, days there in the hope of achieving some healing before they finally died, in a state of grace as I believe Tolkien put it.

: : Gimli was a different matter and you'll not really get a straight answer, I don't think. As a Dwarf he was "mortal" in the sense that he would die a natural physical death eventually. But "mortality" in Tolkien usually when applied to Men more often refers to the difference in fates between the souls of Elves and Men. Men's souls leave Arda and seek elseswhere. Dwarves' souls, it appears, go to the Halls of Mandos and wait.

: : Wait for what? We don't know. Perhaps they wait for the end of the world, perhaps they are released after a time and permitted to dwell with Aule in Valinor. One cannot know.

: : So, Gimli was sort of going to "heaven" by a different route, or to "purgatory".

: Curse my pitifully small library! Does anyone know if, when Tolkien was stating that Tom was an enigma, he also mentioned that Tom was an allegory, or as close to one as he was going to get? I can't quote a source, nor do I know where this came from, but I've been trying to track it down. And no I'm not trying to find allegory in LOTR. I've always believed what Tolkien said in his Foreward. And I've seen sites on the internet devoted to papers alledging that LOTR is an allegory. Poppycock. And yet, Tolkien either did not know himself who Bombadil was, or did but wouldn't tell. Many years ago when debating Tom, I thought it was settled that he had to be one Maia, but Tom is perhaps his own category, the essence of Nature drawing power from the earth itself. Or he is the earth or nature.

Oh no, not the "what is Bombadil discussion again (can it not be posted in the FAQ section?). But, new contributors ask old questions and has the right to it and answers. I had a thought when rereading about the stay at Bombadil's house (I also found the answer to my question concerning Maggot) Tom is outside the story and world- in a sense, he is one who sees and remembers all, one who live on to retell. He is possibly a parallel to Tolkien himself?? ;-) Neithan Turambar ("Tom is a skraelling- he should go and vanguish evil or die proudly in the attempt")