The White Council

Re: Tolkien's views on Elf-women

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: I keep seeing people mention how conservative Tolkien was with his Elf-women. I don't understand where this idea comes from (and I mean I see it everywhere -- not just on the White Council). Tolkien's women mostly go into danger, get involved in the great issues of their days, and oftentimes save their peoples.

: Did Elven women stay at home? No. Indis wandered around Valinor singing and tending to plants and trees in the wilds. Luthien went off dancing in the woods of Neldoreth and did who knows what else until Beren came along. And then she went after him and saved his bacon more than once (he saved her a time or two).

: Idril was the Elf who had the "Way of Escape" built out of Gondolin.

: Haleth led her people across Beleriand to Brethil and ruled them until she died. She and other women among her folk were apparently amazons, female warriors.

: Emeldir the Man-hearted saved the last remnant of her people by leading them through the mountains of horror to refuge in Brethil.

: Erendis stood up to Aldarion though in the end she became petty and bitter, but their daughter Ancalime became the first ruling queen of Numenor, a not-so-insignificant fact.

: Eowyn was a trained warrior who permitted her despair to drive her to seek death, and instead she found greatness and new outlook on life.

: Galadriel left Beleriand before Morgoth overcame the Eldar and destroyed their kingdoms. She was a mover and shaker in the Second and Third centuries and she was responsible for forming the White Council (in the book, not this board). She travelled around the map and doesn't seem to have done much staying at home. Yes, she sewed, and so did Arwen, but they did this by choice. Galadriel and Arwen, as the chief women of their communities, were also probably the equivalent of high priestesses, overseeing the raising and harvesting of the crops, the preparation of food, and the healing of the injured or careworn among their peoples.

: There are many examples of how women not only didn't just stay at home in Tolkien, but how they took action and had a great impact on their world.

: Tolkien seems to hold women up as equals to men in many ways, but also he extends to them a romantic wisdom and perception which the men lack. No woman ever leads her people into folly in Tolkien's world, and only the men are responsible for the dooms which befall their people.

Thanks for the research. I had been attacking the "do-nothing-Arwen" from the other end, by pointing out there was not enough information about Arwen in the book to make any judgement about her one way or the other. Thus is Jackson makes her more active, there's nothing in the book to contradict such a view. Those that have both agreed or disagreed with me always point to Luthien and/or to Arewn's lineage to argue both sides of the question. The active Arwen camp sees Arwen as a reincarnation of Luthien (some one actually said "reincarnation"), the other side argues that Arwen's personality was different than Luthien, and more consistant with Tolkien's overall treatment of women in the book. Based on your post it appears that once again people are placing their own preconceived notions in place of what Tolkien actually says, or more often, what he doesn't say. But I also lay some of this blame on Tolkien himself. The Balrog scene in Moria being a case in point. A cursery reading seems to make it all very clear. But when you go back to see if the Balrog really had wings, or not, it becomes less and less clear. The creature seems to be a shadow within a shadow, like a man, but greater, with shadows that spread like wings, but then saying "the wings spread from wall to wall." When it falls it does not say the Balrog fell, but rather it "shadow" fell. Well the Balrog is a shadow, but the way the sentence is written you'd think that like Peter Pan, the Balrog had lost his shadow. At any rate the way the whole passage is written has caused innumerable debates since the book was first published. And of course, Tolkien rarely describes his characters in other than broad strokes leaving the details to be filled in by the reader. Consequently each reader has imagined a slightly different face on every one in the book, but for some reason everyone seems to think that it's Tolkien's description. How'd he do that? LOL