The White Council

Re: Tolkien's views on Elf-women

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: I keep seeing people mention how conservative Tolkien was with his Elf-women. I don't understand where this idea comes from (and I mean I see it everywhere -- not just on the White Council). Tolkien's women mostly go into danger, get involved in the great issues of their days, and oftentimes save their peoples.

This may be so, but these are the exceptions, the noble and heroic ones that are worth mentioning in tales. Just like five Hobbits of our aquintance- if we had not read the "shire" parts of the books where hobbits are described but only about the five Hobbits, we would be willing to deduce that ALL Hobbits were heroes that went and did things. This is about similar to the amount of information we have on elven women.

: Did Elven women stay at home? No. Indis wandered around Valinor singing and tending to plants and trees in the wilds.

Valinor was a rather safe place.

: Luthien went off dancing in the woods of Neldoreth and did who knows what else until Beren came along.

The area girded by Melian and guarded by Beleg's and Mablung's troops was possibly the safest place in Beleriand to go dancing, wich is entirely in line with my interpretation of Tolkien's elven women.

:And then she went after him and saved his bacon more than once (he saved her a time or two).

This is true, but she also married him and was thus an exception in more ways than once- all this was motivated by her love for him that was greater than anything in Tolkienn's conception. A hopeless love that drove her to desperate acts and a great love that drove her to great acts. Further, Luthien was the daughter of Melian the Maia and Thingol, one of the original "fathers" of the elves.

: Idril was the Elf who had the "Way of Escape" built out of Gondolin.

Yes, she "had the way" built, she did not go out and dug it herself, nor did she fight in the battle for Gondolin, as far as we know, no elven women did, they merely sat and waited to be plucked like ripe fruits. The only Gondolin woman I can think of as doing nothing but staying at home was Turgon's sister, whatshername?, and see what that led to.

: Haleth led her people across Beleriand to Brethil and ruled them until she died. She and other women among her folk were apparently amazons, female warriors.

Haleth is not an Elf, she was one of the Edain, which I have compared to the germanic/Norse shieldmaidens (but that is another point that we seem not to agree on), contrasts to the elves, just like Eowyn is. If you want a First Age edain woman who was elf-like, look rather at Morwen Eledhwen, who sat back in Hithlum waiting for Hurin and then sent her son away because she could not go herself. Later when she went after Turin, it was, as Luthien, motivated by great desperation and need (and, I believe, a mad rage induced by Morgoth's curse).

: Emeldir the Man-hearted saved the last remnant of her people by leading them through the mountains of horror to refuge in Brethil.

See the above

: Erendis stood up to Aldarion though in the end she became petty and bitter, but their daughter Ancalime became the first ruling queen of Numenor, a not-so-insignificant fact.

Stay-at-home does not preclude being a competent ruler, Denethor himself defines his role as a stay-at-home. Nor does stay-at-home preclude having enough backbone to stand up for your own rights. And, in contrast to the Edainic shieldmaidens, I think Erendis is indeed relevant in our defining the role of elven women- though not totally, the Dúnedain were NOT elves, they were the second children of Eru, with a wholly different concept and nature.

: Eowyn was a trained warrior who permitted her despair to drive her to seek death, and instead she found greatness and new outlook on life.

Conceded, but, Eowyn was a Rohirrim, not a very elvenlike folk, and again, an exception- she has to employ stealth and subterfuge to get to the Pellanor. I think the Rohir aristocrats may have allowed their women to train as fighters and to the lower classes it may be a need, but I do not see them fighting in the army. I do not believe that we can use her to anything but contrast the elves, and thus enhance our understanding of the complication of Tolkien's concept- why should all women in his world be alike, all men are not?

: Galadriel left Beleriand before Morgoth overcame the Eldar and destroyed their kingdoms.

That can be defined as keeping safe to nurse, heal, rule, etc. too. : She was a mover and shaker in the Second and Third centuries and she was responsible for forming the White Council (in the book, not this board). She travelled around the map and doesn't seem to have done much staying at home.

A good ruler must travel around, and a states(wo)man may well do a lot of political machinations to further the cause. But is that running around leading armies to fight evil? No, it is rather the quiet manipulations of a politician/high priestess etc. It fits well with my interpretation where there is a strong woman behind every strong man, but she is behind, doing the subtle parts. : Yes, she sewed, and so did Arwen, but they did this by choice. Galadriel and Arwen, as the chief women of their communities, were also probably the equivalent of high priestesses, overseeing the raising and harvesting of the crops, the preparation of food, and the healing of the injured or careworn among their peoples.

Exactly, nurturing their realms, not running around in the wilds. Why do we disagree? And, as for Galadriel, she was often held out as an exception, I think she too, is called man hearted and I know that she was man-high (does that mean all elven women are man-high?) and called the equal of Fëanor. now that strikes me as an unusual personality an may account for her active role.

: There are many examples of how women not only didn't just stay at home in Tolkien, but how they took action and had a great impact on their world.

Yes, stay at home and pull political clout.

: Tolkien seems to hold women up as equals to men in many ways, but also he extends to them a romantic wisdom and perception which the men lack. No woman ever leads her people into folly in Tolkien's world, and only the men are responsible for the dooms which befall their people.

And the women are the ones to heal them. :-) Neithan Turambar