The White Council

Re: Tom Bombadil and the Earth

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : You make it sound as though Sauron would save Tolm for last as if he were a dessert. Tom Bombadil, the mild mannered nature sprite, with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men? But I think the context of the text clearly indicates that Tom had enough power to hold off all of Sauron's power for a time, but in the end even he could not hold out alone. At the very least Tom had the power to thwart two, if not more of the Nazgul. Do you think they just lost track of Frodo in the Old Forest? My impression, and I should go check, is that they either wouldn't or couldn't enter Tom's domain. If true, that makes Tom at least as powerful as an Elf lord. That the One Ring had no effect on Tom at all puts him several leagues beyond the most powerful person in Middle-Earth at the time - Gandalf, who himself had to resist the temptation to wield the Ring. If the Maia could feel the effect of the Ring, it would tend to indicate that Tom was not a Maia. If I'm right, I just blew my own theory about Tom.

: My own personal theory is that Tom was an Ainur of Valar-level power who did not take up the governance of Arda when he entered Ea and thus cannot be termed as a Vala.

: A little background. The Valar and Maiar are all Ainur, simply of different orders of power. The Valar/Maiar distinction on appears in Ea. They are the Ainur who left Illuvater, entered Ea and took up governance of the physical universe. Now, what if Tom was an extremely powerful Ainur, left Illuvatar, came to Ea, but being Tom, was uninterested in governing anything.He simply wanted to exists in the physical world and relax for a few eons. Tom could not be a Vala because he did not take up a governing role but he could still be of Vala level power.

: This, I believe, explains the Ring's lack of power over Tom. If here were merely a Maia or of Maia level power, I think the Ring might have been able to exert some control over Tom. Sauron was a Maia but it appears he was just about the most powerful one - maybe on Eonwe could take him out. Sauron without the Ring made mincemeat of Saruman's will and Saruman was no slouch himself. The power of the Ring gave Gandalf pause to even thing of taking it. Thus, if Tom was only of maia level power, I do not thin khe would be immune to the Ring. But if he were of Vala level power there would be no way Sauron's puny little ring would do anything to him.

Why do you say that? Who says that Sauron's ring wouldn't have any hold over the Valar? At the end of the third age, Sauron was probably a power to rival even the might of Morgoth in his prime (Even just in terms of army numbers, Sauron was fighting a three front war - Gondor, Lorien, and Dale - and probably would have won if it weren't for the ring's destruction - something any ruler or nation would find difficult. Morgoth only ever had to fight a one front war - and even then he only won through treachery; he never would have triumphed if it were for the treachery of people like the Easterlings and Maeglin.) To accomplish this, Sauron must have had some tremendous innate power, and been a maia of incredible stature. He put a huge portion of this power into the ring. And if Sauron's strength was a rival to Morgoth's, then power in the ring would have been significant even to the Valar. That having been said, I have no doubt that the Valar could have handled the ring - resisted its temptation, and destroyed it in the forges of Aule. But I don't think it would have been considerd a trifle even by them.

: Tolkien (or his characters) do not say that Sauron could defeat Tom. It is simply said that if Sauron took the world, Tom would be left in his little forest. There would benothing for him and he would simply leave.

: Russ