The White Council

Re: power

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : When discussing the power of Sauron versus that of Melkor, Morgoth, the Valar, the Elves, the Númenorans, Bombadil, or whoever. It is important to remember that the power level in middle-earth go down with time. In the beginning angelic beings walked the earth, they do not at time of the War of the Ring- or if they do, they do it diguised and with greatly decreased power. Then in the First Age Elves galore who have walked the Undying Lands arrive and struggle with Morgoth for mastery. So does the original fathers of men. In the Second Age, many Elves of incredible power level remain to continue the struggle, this time with Morgoth's SiC; Sauron, who, with his ring is also a mighty force. the Elves are supported by the Númenorans- the peak of mannish achievement and power was Númenor. The Númenorans humble Sauron (before he corrupts them even further) and he loses part of himself in the Akkalabeth. The Age ends by Sauron being overthrown. : : : Now, Aragorn, heroic though he is, is hardly Hurin, Turin or Beren. Legolas is hardly Fingolfin, Feänor, Thingol or even Beleg. The power level go down, thus it is pointless to say that since such and such happened in the First Age, then we can deduce something of the power level in the Third. It strikes me that a lot of posts comparing the strengths of various powerful beings at different times, do exactly that. I believe we cannot, the power level in the War of the Ring is so much lessened from the War of the Jewels. Even Sauron must have lost or forgotten much of what he was and could- this happens even to Olorin over his ~2000 years in Middle-earth, how much will it not have happened to Sauron over his, what ~7000? years? Why else would he have to forge the One? : : : Remember this when discussing the power of various beings. : : : ;-) Neithan Turambar (if only I had lived on to fight in the War of the Ring- killing 42 Orks, Ha, my father kiled 70 Trolls in shorter time, facing them all at once)

: : This is an interesting fact. I just thought of how it explains why the Valar had to come out in full force ( in the War of Wrath, I think) against Morgoth and it wasn't needed in the battle against Sauron ( It would have helped, though.)

: This is analagous to the Bible, or at least the book of Genesis. In the early part of Genesis, God makes things as He wants them. He walks in the Garden of Eden and talks. After the Sin of Adam and Eve, they are expelled from the Graden and prevented from returning. That's the last time He ever prevents people from going anywhere, ever. Floods and confusion are nothing against a flaming sword. Later He just warns but doesn't interfere. God obviously has no problem communicating with Cain, but can no longer punish him with the same severity as he punished his parents. Later still, He communicates only with a chosen few, and then mostly by dreams. Of course God's power didn't really diminish, but his use of it changes. Is this analagous to Middle-earth?

I am always hesitant to answer these kinds of questions. Strike that, my reply won't really be an answer - that would be presumptious on my part. At any rate I noticed two things when comparing the Genesis account. One God had a more personal relationship with Adam and Eve than with any other pwerson, including Moses. Also note there is no mention of religious services, other than sacrifices, which I sort of found analogous to the lack of religious services in LOTR. But in LOTR, Eru had already moved into the background, only exerting his power to destroy the Numenorean fleet and to physically change Middel-Earth. So I think it would be difficult to make a strong case that there is anything in the book that corresponds directly with Biblical events. Tolkien seemed more concerned with setting up a a corresponding myth to the sinking of Atlantis. On the other hand, it also seems clear that he wanted a monotheistic culture rather than have the Elves and Men worship a pantheon of gods. It also seems apparent that Tolkien tried (and mostly succeeded in limiting any religious references in LOTR. It isn't until after one reads the book and wants to know more about the various characters that these questions begin to arise. The Silmarillion, of course, is another matter and tries to flesh in some of the pre-history mentioned brieefly in LOTR.