The White Council

Re: Is Tol Eressea a part of the Undying Lands?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: I have always been a little concerned about this particular : subject, it's so incredibly "old testament" the punishment does : not fit the crime not only was Numenor drowned but severe : damage was inflicted on the Western Shores of Middle Earth : during the cataclysm, there was even some speculation (in The : Lost Road I think) that Tol Eressea went down with the rest and : all the elves who died were "reincarnated" back in Valinor (ok : this was an early draft but I think it gives an idea of the : scale of the catastrophe that so haunted Tolkien). I also : remember a reference to Tirion on Tuna being buried when : Valinor was sealed off.

I cannot find any mention of such a catastrophe in LOST TALES. Perhaps you're thinking of "The Drowning of Anadune" or some other later work.

However, in the "official" story, the destruction of the western coasts of Middle-earth is acceptable for a couple of reasons. First, there were unfaithful Numenoreans living in those coastlands. The destruction could have served as a warning to them and all other Numenoreans, though the warning might have gone unheeded. Secondly, the destruction could also have served to remind all of Middle-earth's inhabitants of just who was really the boss.

And the reason why Tirion upon Tuna was destroyed was that Ar-Pharazon's army was encamped in the city and around the hill. To destroy the army meant destroying the city and the hill.

: Surely beings as wise as Illuvatar and the Valar could have : managed to produce some kind of rehabilitation for erring : mankind.

Such rehabilitation would have to negate their freedom of choice, and neither Iluvatar nor the Valar would take that freedom away from Men. The freedom to choose one's own doom, no matter how awful that doom may be, is perhaps one of the gifts Tolkien most cherished.

: After all Mankind gets a pretty raw deal in Tolkien in : comparison to the Elves (the "gift" of men, the lack of divine : support during the awakening of men while we were left alone : with only Melkor for company for uncounted years, not counting : the undoubtedly superior gifts granted the Elves).

I think you're being unfair here. Elves envied Men their gift because the endless years of life in Middle-earth became a burden to them, and they were in doubt about what happened to them after Time came to an end. And Men were no more abandoned than were Elves. Melkor discovered both races before the Valar did.

: There may also be some argument that as so much of what happens : in Middle Earth occurs as some kind of predestination that the : downfall was also predestined and that therefore it was part of : Illuvatar's purpose that this should happen. Which is pretty : disturbing.

I don't believe there is any mention of the downfall of Men or Numenor in the Music of the Ainur. Such events were regrettable but not foreseen by the Valar. Iluvatar may have known they would happen, but he still did not make the choice for Men.

: Anyway I'm kinda digressing on the point of Tol Eressea, I am : reminded of your own essay about what the Elves do in Valinor, : it has always fascinated me how so many elves were crowded onto : a small island. First of all the returning Exiles at the end of : the First Age, then all the elves who left Middle Earth during : the following three ages, factoring in for population growth : (Elves seem to be much more fecund away from Mortal Lands vis : the large families of the House of Finwe) it would add up to a : sizeable population.

But how small was the island? Tol Eressea was originally going to be England (Brittania). There are quite a few people there.

And though we are told the Exiles had to live in Tol Eressea, because of their rebellion, there would be many other Elves (Sindar, Avari, whatever) who should have been able to settle along the shores of Eldamar, if not in Valinor itself. And one never knows -- perhaps the Valar eventually relented and permitted Elves from Tol Eressea to live wherever they wished after a few ages.

: And another thing (I haven't posted in ages, forgive me) surely : all the elves who returned to Tol Eressea are (in all practical : senses) barred from going to Valinor too? Those Pelori are : supposed to be impassable. This would imply that the likes of : Galadriel are in semi-permanent separation from many of their : kin. O.K they can die and be reborn in Valinor but that seems a : bit extreme. I wonder what the suicide rate is like on the : Lonely Island?

I doubt there would be much suicide there. Probably the Valar opened a new passage for the Eldar who wished to pass into and out of Valinor. The need for the Pelori would have vanished with the removal of Aman from Arda.