The White Council

Strangely, things tally ;)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : Was the Rohanish host a standing army? As in a paid force of : : professionals, or was it more like the Zulu system of brigading : : young men (delaying their ability to marry and become less : : useful warriors) for war whilst still using them for looking : : after the king's cattle etc.

: The Riders of Rohan were a professional army in that the soldiers were specially trained and equipped and they were not all the men of Rohan. Nor were they merely the unmarried men as in the Zulu system (actually, Zulu warriors could marry once they had drawn blood in battle).

There were older married ibuthos (age-regiments) in the Zulu army but they were only brigaded in emergency and were much slower to mobilise than the young ibuthos who lived communally. The Rohan army sounds more like the Zulu than the Roman system, comparatively.

: : Also if Gondor's population was relatively large and had a : : largish standing army, where were they?

: What do you mean, "Where were they?" Denethor sent majority of Minas Tirith's people to the refuges of Lossarnach and beyond.

I meant where were the presumed extra soldiery.

: : Neither the action at the causway forts or the initial battle : : at Pelargir are spoken of as if they involved particularly : : large Gondorian forces. The retreat from the forts is not : : spoken of as though a mere tenth had escaped. Indeed the : : battles before Pellenor are described as rearguard, delaying : : actions not pitched battles such as Pellenor itself.

: A significant force is implied in the action at the causeway forts. Faramir was able to delay the advance of an army of more than 30,000 troops through direct action. Tolkien says he was ten times outnumbered. If that statement is to be accepted (and I see no reason not to accept it), he had at least 3,000 men serving under him.

: : How many Free People troops fought at Pellenor? Including the : : Rohirrim and Aragorn's force I get the impression of between 15 : : and 20 thousand. So where is the large Gondorian standing : : force? Did they "Look, duck and vanish."

: You're assuming they should all have been at Minas Tirith, which is a grave error. Theoden only led six thousand Riders to Gondor. He originally intended to lead ten thousand there, but instead because of losses in battle and concern for the vulnerability of his people (he didn't know the Ents would be of further assistance) he decided to leave another four thousand Riders to defend the homeland. It was a prudent move.

: And Aragorn only arrived with a small part of the forces he brought from the coastlands. There is no mention of how many soldiers he left to defend the coasts, but I doubt he would have stripped them of every man.

Yes but I would imagine that only a part of these forces would have been from the standing army.

: Angbor alone had to march to Minas Tirith with 4,000 men who were not expected to arrive until several days after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

: There were probably around 10,000 soldiers in Minas Tirith and the adjoining lands when the attack on Gondor began. This would include Faramir's force at the river and the reinforcements from the fiefs. It doesn't include Theoden's six thousand Riders.

This is still rather small and fits fairly well with my earlier estimates of army and total population size. That is, by your own estimation, 7,000 would be the maximum number of professional troops in or around MT at the time. If you presume that Anorien and the city itself provided some semi- or non-professional troops like the southerners did,this reduces the numbers of standing troops even more. Say for arguments sake that these areas provided 2,000 levy-troops, this reduces the standing force to 5,000. If you then assume a similar sized force in the south plus perhaps a further 1,000 at Cair Andros then the standing army of Gondor numbers around 11,000 - which is what I imagined it to be originally.

: We know only that Aragorn brought at least 2,000 soldiers from the south on the captured ships. Imrahil muster 3,500 men from the remaining forces in Minas Tirith to lead against Mordor, and yet Aragorn said the city would be left in better defense than before the war began. Even though the Rohirrim left 3,000 men under Elfhelm, they could not have composed the bulk of the forces left in the city.

A bit of rough arithmetic on these figures gives a good agreement with what you have said.

Beginning with 6,000 Rohirrim and leaving 3,000 behind, assuming Eomer took 2,000 with him gives 1,000 casualties for the Rohirrim in the battle, a reasonable figure for the victors. As the Godorians were in other actions a loss of 2,000 from the original 10,000 seems resonable and a loss of 300 for Aragorn's contingent (if it were around 2,000 strong).

For the expedition this gives 1,500 for Aragorn's force, 3,500 for Imrahil and 2,000 for Eomer - 7,000.

Back at Minas Tirith would be 4,500 of the original Gondorian force , 200 from Aragorn's, 3,000 Rohirrim and Angbor's 4,000. Giving a grand total of 11,700 which would be marginally more than the original force.

: Gondor was quite strong militarily. It just wasn't as strong as Mordor.

We still seem to be pitting 11,000, standing Gondorian troops, 6,000 Rohirrim and perhaps 35,000 semi-professional and amateur troops against Mordor's host. Though at a grand total of 52,000 troops of all descriptions this fits relatively well with your 3 to 1 ratio :)