The White Council

You need to re-tally (was Re: Strangely, things tally ;))

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : The Riders of Rohan were a professional army in that the : : soldiers were specially trained and equipped and they were : : not all the men of Rohan. Nor were they merely the unmarried : : men as in the Zulu system (actually, Zulu warriors could : : marry once they had drawn blood in battle).

: There were older married ibuthos (age-regiments) in the Zulu : army but they were only brigaded in emergency and were much : slower to mobilise than the young ibuthos who lived communally. : The Rohan army sounds more like the Zulu than the Roman system, : comparatively.

Actually, the Rohirrim sound more like the Roman army from before the 1st century BCE reforms. The Riders of Rohan assembled pretty quickly, and being mounted fought and were organized in a very different fashion from the Zulus.

It's doubtful Tolkien knew much about the Zulus. We do know he studied the classics and read them in the original Latin. So his knowledge of Roman history and traditions was far more extensive than his knowledge of Zulu culture could be.

: : : Also if Gondor's population was relatively large and had a : : : largish standing army, where were they?

: : What do you mean, "Where were they?" Denethor sent majority : : of Minas Tirith's people to the refuges of Lossarnach and : : beyond.

: I meant where were the presumed extra soldiery.

You're still not being clear to me. Tolkien did not give a detailed accounting of Denethor's forces. What numbers we have are obviously incomplete.

[snip]

: : You're assuming they should all have been at Minas Tirith, : : which is a grave error. Theoden only led six thousand Riders : : to Gondor. He originally intended to lead ten thousand : : there, but instead because of losses in battle and concern : : for the vulnerability of his people (he didn't know the Ents : : would be of further assistance) he decided to leave another : : four thousand Riders to defend the homeland. It was a : : prudent move.

: : And Aragorn only arrived with a small part of the forces he : : brought from the coastlands. There is no mention of how many : : soldiers he left to defend the coasts, but I doubt he would : : have stripped them of every man.

: Yes but I would imagine that only a part of these forces would : have been from the standing army.

With no real reason to do so, however. It's possible that there were a mixture of forces, but Tolkien never mentions militia. We know that some regions of Gondor sent what appear to be "irregulars": the fisherfolk from the Ethir, and the long line of men from the Langstrand. But that says nothing concerning who stayed behind to defend hearth and home.

: : Angbor alone had to march to Minas Tirith with 4,000 men who : : were not expected to arrive until several days after the : : Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

: : There were probably around 10,000 soldiers in Minas Tirith : : and the adjoining lands when the attack on Gondor began. : : This would include Faramir's force at the river and the : : reinforcements from the fiefs. It doesn't include Theoden's : : six thousand Riders.

: This is still rather small and fits fairly well with my earlier : estimates of army and total population size. That is, by your : own estimation, 7,000 would be the maximum number of : professional troops in or around MT at the time...

Incorrect. I said around 10,000. That implies a population of around 100,000 men in the vicinity. Hence, Minas Tirith and its supporting lands may have had a population as high as 500,000 people or more.

: ...If you presume that Anorien and the city itself provided : some semi- or non-professional troops like the southerners : did, this reduces the numbers of standing troops even more...

I have no reason to make such an assumption, however. The texts give none.

: ...Say for arguments sake that these areas provided 2,000 : levy-troops, this reduces the standing force to 5,000...

It would reduce the force to 8,000.

: ...If you then assume a similar sized force in the south plus : perhaps a further 1,000 at Cair Andros then the standing army : of Gondor numbers around 11,000 - which is what I imagined it : to be originally.

You're not allowing for losses in previous battles. Gondor's army was not being called up in a time of emergency. A state of war had existed at least since 2954. Sauron attacked Osgiliath in June, 3018. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields occured in March 3019.

: : We know only that Aragorn brought at least 2,000 soldiers : : from the south on the captured ships. Imrahil muster 3,500 : : men from the remaining forces in Minas Tirith to lead against : : Mordor, and yet Aragorn said the city would be left in better : : defense than before the war began. Even though the Rohirrim : : left 3,000 men under Elfhelm, they could not have composed : : the bulk of the forces left in the city.

: A bit of rough arithmetic on these figures gives a good : agreement with what you have said.

: Beginning with 6,000 Rohirrim and leaving 3,000 behind, : assuming Eomer took 2,000 with him gives 1,000 casualties for : the Rohirrim in the battle, a reasonable figure for the : victors. As the Godorians were in other actions a loss of : 2,000 from the original 10,000 seems resonable and a loss of : 300 for Aragorn's contingent (if it were around 2,000 strong).

300 for Aragorn? He brought men in 50 large ships and many smaller vessels. He probably lost far more than 300. And again you're not taking into account previous losses.

Aragorn probably brought several thousand men north -- let's say 5,000+ just to be HIGHLY conservative.

: For the expedition this gives 1,500 for Aragorn's force, 3,500 : for Imrahil and 2,000 for Eomer - 7,000.

: Back at Minas Tirith would be 4,500 of the original Gondorian : force , 200 from Aragorn's, 3,000 Rohirrim and Angbor's 4,000. : Giving a grand total of 11,700 which would be marginally more : than the original force.

Way too small.

: : Gondor was quite strong militarily. It just wasn't as strong : : as Mordor.

: We still seem to be pitting 11,000, standing Gondorian troops, : 6,000 Rohirrim and perhaps 35,000 semi-professional and amateur : troops against Mordor's host. Though at a grand total of : 52,000 troops of all descriptions this fits relatively well : with your 3 to 1 ratio :)

I'm not pitting 11,000 standing troops, let alone 35,000 SEMI-professional and amateur troops against Mordor. The vast majority of the Gondorian soldiery are either described as professionals or not described at all. You're heaping unwarranted assumption atop unwarranted assumption here and your conclusion is unsupportable.

Gondor was a strong nation. It had a large population. It more than likely had a large standing army, probaly on the order of 30-40,000 soldiers at the time of the War of the Ring. Whether it relied much upon militia forces cannot be determined, but very few examples of such forces can be found: precisely 2 examples, for that matter, are all that CAN be found.