The White Council

Re: Creating life (was Re: Trolls)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : : Where the trolls really "made" out of stone? If they were it again strikes me as puzzling due to the fact that Morgoth could not bestow life upon something non-living. I know that trolls would be turned to stone if exposed to sunlight but were they really fashioned out of stone or it that just a myth among the people of ME?

: : : : : : Thanx again, everybody, for all the help. Even though my questions have probably been discussed hundreds of times, this really gives me a chance to get a better understanding of Tolkien's work.

: : : : : crackpot theory one:

: : : : : Morgoth cannot give life. But are stones really inanimate? Maybe they just need to be woken. Legolas once mentioned that the stones had memory of the Elves once living here?

: : : : : crackpot theory two:

: : : : : If trees have shepherds, why don't stones?

: : : : In the Silmarillion, it says that Iluvatar allowed for the creation of the Ents because he had allowed for the creation of the Dwarves. Because the Dwarves (and the other Eruhini) would have need to harvest plants, Yavanna wished for the plants to have protectors. Since Aule already had the Dwarves, he had no reason to ask for "Shepheards of Stone".

: : : : Here's a question, though. I have not read much of HoME (just parts of 1,2 and all of 5) but I haven't found mention of Melkor's inability to create life. In fact, in Quenta Silmarillion (part of HoME 5), Tolkien says that Melkor (or Melko) created the Balrogs. Where does it say (other than Sil) that Melkor couldn't create life?

: : : This boils down to the difference between bestowing life on something and changing one living thing to another. Both can be considered a "creation". Balrogs, as far as I know, were maiar spirits which Melkor "changed" in a sense; turning them to evil and perverting their form. If Melkor could bestow life I'm sure he would've come up with something better than dim-witted trolls and filthy orcs.

: : At the time of the writing I am referring to (Quenta Silmarillion in HoME #5) Tolkien had not yet fully conceived the idea of the Maiar. There were some lesser spirits, but they were mostly the children of the Valar (eg: Fionwe (later Eonwe) was the son of Manwe and Varda). It specifically says that Melkor (written as Melko) "created" the Balrogs. (There were also supposed to be thousands of them.) I'm not saying that these events DID happen or should supplant later writings, I'm just saying that as late as 1937 (when Tolkien began LotR), Tolkien explicity stated that Melkor (Melko) COULD create life. Where does it say (excluding Sil) that he couldn't create life?

: Ok, I confess to not having read what you are referring to, so I can't really comment on it (so I won't).

: However, it seems strange to me that Melkor would go to all the trouble of catching elves etc. and then imprisoning them, perverting their hearts as well as their bodies (which couldn't have been easy)when he could just have created a few thousand more Balrogs which are stronger and probably cleverer (than the orcs, trolls etc) and been better off in the long run as it was much harder to kill a balrog than an orc, for instance.

With the advent of the Maiar race, Tolkien decided that that's what Balrogs would be and had there number limited to (I think) 12. So he didn't create Balrogs, but that still doesn't mean that he couldn't create ANYTHING. The question still remains: WHERE DID TOLKIEN SAY THAT MELKOR COULDN'T CREATE LIFE?

If the phrase exists only in Sil, then it may very well be an invention of Chritopher Tolkien's.