The White Council

Re: SEX in Middle Earth

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : I thought that might get your attention. Seriously though, does anybody have any theories as to why, in the three sexual relationships that we know of between elves and humans, are they all conducted between human males and elven females? If you catch my drift.

: : : Personally I suspect that it might have something to do with Tolkien's own relationship with his wife Edith, Tolkien seeing himself as Beren with Edith as Luthien,but this is only speculation. Did the master himself, ever write anything relating to this question?

: : : Also, Dwarves - how did their population manage to recover so well after the disaster of the orc wars when so few of them were females and these were jealously guarded? (certainly goes some way to explaining dwarvish avarice - suppressed sexuality perhaps?)

: : : Any theories on orc reproduction anyone?

: : As for the male Men (oy vey, that sounds wierd!) marrying female Elves, personally, I think it has to do with some supositions Tolkien had in his head, and how he thought of his two races. Not that he ever said anything like this; it's simply an underlying impression I get from Tolkien. And this isn't the most complete answer I could give during a proper debate (over several mugs of beer). And I can bet I'm gonna get flamed for this, but here goes anyway.

: : For Tolkien, elves were the elder race. Superior in almost every way. The three marriages between the edain and the high elves were important because in each of those, the men had achieved greatness. It's as though they became good enough, and had passed enough tests to be rewarded with such trophies. (OK. That's putting it harshly, true. And to clarify: it's not really the case with Beren and Luthien (the tests are put in place after they fall in love); only kind of the case with Tuor and Idril; and definitely the case with Aragorn and Arwen.)

: : And if this is the case, then for Tolkien, how could a mere mortal woman ever hope to become so great?

: : Now you can argue that Tolkien was a sexist. Or you can argue that he sympathized with the subordinate position of women, and called attention to it, but recognized that none would ever really have the opportunity to achieve so much as to be "rewarded" with an elven mate. But to me, that's all speculation. (Unless Tolkien actually said something on the matter; I don't think he was a womens-libber, but I suppose I could have missed that.) The result in his literature is the same.

: We must remember that when Tolkien was writing LOTR (30's-50's) there wasn't really so much womens lib going on (or it was only getting started), nor for that matter the political correctness thing. I mean, not to sound like a sexist or anything, women had a place in those days and we can see it in Tolkien's writing...I mean, how many women actually went out onto the battle-field, besides Eowyn and that was in disguise and against the King's wishes.

[snip]

Well, actually there were several periods in modern history when women fought for liberation. And actually, in Britain in the 60s and 70s, the women's lib movement was quite weak (compared to the US). Britain had a much livlier and more active women's movement around the time of WWI, before and after, when the Pankhurst sisters made a name for themselves with civil disobedience. The Pankhurst sisters and their suffragettes terrorized the "establishment" and were very well known. And their impact was undeniable.

From what I can guess from his literature, Tolkien probably absorbed some of this, and agreed to some extent, but then disagreed with many other things of their movement.

WWII also upset many "traditional" aspects of women's life, or rather what was expected from women's life. With the men going off to die in Europe, women were forced to take jobs in factories and heavy industry (where before they had been pariahs). A recent show described how British sexual mores were revolutionized by women leaving the home and finding work in mass numbers. This would have been in the background of Tolkien's head too while writing LOTR.

Hmmm... Anybody written an essay comparing Eowyn and Rosie the Riveter? ;) Could be very interesting...

In any case, it's generally a sign of modern hubris and poor history classes that people seem to think that ideas and attitudes generally get more enlightened as the years go on, and that old people are invariably more stiff, crusty, and conservative than youth. History is very give and take. Two steps forward, one step back - that sort of thing. And sometimes it's two or three steps back. (IMHO, attitudes today are a far cry backwards from what they were in the 60s and 70s.)

So anyway, to "forgive" people in a previous period for being sexist, is to misunderstand both history and ideology, because there were movements and ideas that challenged such chauvanism back then that were just as powerful, or more powerful (and less powerful too), than there are today.

Sorry for the lecture.

Dave C-Q