The White Council

Re: Way off the mark.

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

I'm ignoring the numbers game for the moment other things need setting out.

Snippage throughout

: : Tolkien was born in South Africa, he may have had more than a : : passing interest in its history and peoples in later life as a : : result. The Zulu War had a big impact on British popular : : culture (Rorke's Drift, Isandhlwana, Ulundi etc.) in the period : : when Tolkien was a boy, I would be surprised if he was not : : aware of Rider Haggard's Zulu adventure stories (relatively : : well researched).

: Tolkien almost never expressed any interest in South Africa, except in one letter to Christopher (who was stationed there at the time as a member of the RAF during WWII). He describes it as a hot, dry, parched country and recalls that his mother hated it, though he did wistfully say he'd like to visit it again.

: Nonetheless, he never speaks of the Zulus or discusses their history. They have no connection to his scholarly interests whatsoever.

The Zulus were a parallel, a pastoral people with a well organised military, but without the sophistication of a culture like Rome or Gondor. I was not suggesting a direct inspiration for Tolkien from this people. Having said this, given the generation he was from, he would have found it hard to be totally ignorant of the Zulu War. The single action at Rorke's Drift resulted in the bestowal of a dozen or so Victoria Crosses, and the captive Zulu king Cetewayo was brought to Britain and was quite feted by the press.

: : : : You're still not being clear to me. Tolkien did not give a : : : detailed accounting of Denethor's forces. What numbers we : : : have are obviously incomplete.

: : If you can find a single Gonorian force, in TWOTR, of any : : description whose numbers appear to be greater than 10,000 I : : would be surprised. There is no evidence for large numbers of : : Gondorian troops.

: I have given examples. There is a great deal of evidence for large numbers of Gondorian troops.

Nothing over 10,000 though, excepting the"tithe" comment - and these I am certain were not standing professional troops.

: : : : Yes but I would imagine that only a part of these forces : : : : would have been from the standing army.

: : : With no real reason to do so, however. It's possible that : : : there were a mixture of forces, but Tolkien never mentions : : : militia. We know that some regions of Gondor sent what : : : appear to be "irregulars": the fisherfolk from the Ethir, and : : : the long line of men from the Langstrand. But that says : : : nothing concerning who stayed behind to defend hearth and : : : home.

: : The forces of the Southern Fiefs are in no way described as if : : they were regular troops. All the evidence points to them : : being the followers of the regional lords or a regional militia : : of some description. Other than Faramir who is described as a : : captain (probably implying "Captain General" or some such : : title) none of the leaders of Gondorian troops is described by : : a military rank ; neither are the troops described as being in : : military units, no regiments, cohorts, brigades or such like : : are evident (excepting only the Tower Guard).

: There is no evidence suggesting the troops which march to Minas Tirith are the personal followings of regional lords. And all the leaders of Denethor's council (as well as Boromir) are referred to as captains.

All the inferences point to these troops being irregular. I would make a possible exception for Imrahil's men-at-arms, it seems to me that Imrahil would probably have a similar guard to that established for Faramir. Having said this the troops mentioned as coming from the south are described as coming from their homelands not from cantonments or garrisons. Indeed the placing of some of the troops argues quite eloquently against their being regular. When faced with the threat of invasion from the east and south it would be the highest folly to place any of your regular troops in such strategically insignificant backwaters as Morthond and Pinnath Gelin. These areas were under no immediate threat and were of no military significance. Again with the exception of Dol Amroth, all the inference is that these troops had, like Cincinatus (?), merely put down their hoes and picked up spears.

: And Tolkien speaks of companies in many places, if military terminology is required. Beregond is a member of the Third Company of the Citadel.

: Where they would have been recruited has nothing to do with where they were stationed. Denethor was responsible for all of Gondor (with the apparent exception of Belfalas).

But these men - under their local lords - were coming from their homes to war. That is the whole atmosphere of the description of their arrival at Minas Tirith. It is the mobilisation of the last reserves of armed man power, not the spatial rearrangement of a number of field forces of a standing army. You miss the meaning of these passages if you believe these are regular troops.

: : : : ...If you presume that Anorien and the city itself provided : : : : some semi- or non-professional troops like the southerners : : : : did, this reduces the numbers of standing troops even : : : : more...

: : : I have no reason to make such an assumption, however. The texts give none.

: : The south provides such troops, see my reasoning above, : : therefore it seems likely that the north (MT and Anorien) : : would have similar duties.

: Your reasoning, however, is based upon unsubstantiated assumptions. The texts do not support this viewpoint.

The texts certainly do not support these troops as professionals, the assumption that they are standing troops without evidence is more specious than assuming the opposite.

: : Each year would provide a new cadre of maturing young men to : : provide new recruits. As long as the state's finances were : : relatively sound attritional minor warfare would not decrease : : the overall numbers of troops available. NB you don't have to : : pay the wages of a dead man, therefore you can afford to : : replace him.

: You're assuming these guys were just called up, however, and there is nothing in the books to suggest this. Gondor's soldiers were well equipped (at least as well-equipped as the Rohirrim, who got much of their armor from Gondor) and well-trained. It takes time to raise and train an army, and Denethor's army had many concerns.

It is reasonable to assume in a pre-industrial setting such as ME that a considerable proportion of the adult male population would have some familiarity with, and basic ability in using, weapons. Dangerous wild animals there certainly were, and we may safely assume some level of brigandage (human nature being what it is) plus hunting was always considered good practice for war. Thus travellers would have armed themselves, shepherds and cattle drovers would have had recourse to spears, bows and slings, foresters have always produced marksmen (bow or latterly rifle), and the upper class would have hunted and thus been given practice in horsemanship and the use of bow and boar spear. It does not take too long given such starting material to train a soldier, plus one would not be raising troops from scratch but either replacing losses within existing units (resulting in "On the job" training) or calling out men who were already given part-time training either as members of feudal retinues or as regional militiamen. As regards equipment, a parallel could be taken from the Elizabethan "Trained Bands" these were men who were farmers, labourers, craftsmen etc., but in peace time they regularly assembled and trained at arms under officers and sergeants, and in time of war they brigaded and came under government control and pay. Their uniforms, arms and armour were stored in the local parish church, and if they were sometimes a little old-fashioned they were serviceable - swords, muskets, pikes, cuirasses, helmets and even arm defences. Well equipped but not regular full-time troops. The argument that well equipped troops have to be professionals doesn't hold water.

: : It could be argued that (other than the Tower Guard) it would : : be difficult to point a finger at a demonstrably professional : : soldier in the whole of LOTR. The King's or Steward's shilling : : is nowhere to be seen.

: : ...The southerners cannot be examples of standing forces for : : the very reason that you do not need to mobilise a standing : : army from scratch, by definition it is always in a state of : : readiness for war.

: Where is it said these troops were suddenly called up, mobilized from scratch? Why would ordinary farmers and fisherfolk have weapons and armor lying around the homestead?

See above.

: Most of what we see in Gondor is its army, not its people. We are told by Tolkien that Gondor is still a very well-populated country despite its decline.

Yes but compared to what? The vasty fields of Eriador with hardly an inhabitant spoken of?