The White Council

A few months ago in a different message board (a less reputable one, IMHO), I got into a debate about what happened to Tuor. The other arguer was convinced that the above passage meant that Tuor became immortal, became a elf. This also implied that Tuor and Idril eventually made it to the Uttermost West.

Does anybody else think that? Is that the general consensus? Is there a consensus?

My own personal feelings are that this is not so. First of all, the Valar could not make mortals immortal or change the Gift of Iluvatar. They only did so in the cases of the Half-elven (and Luthien, a half-Maia). Second, If Tuor found his way before Earendil, that messes up the whole point of the Silmarillion. And if he showed up later, that would be really very boring. Not a very good story. "Hi everybody! What's up? Me? Oh, Idril and I just got lost, spent some time on an island, and made our way here eventually. Oh, and somehow I became immortal. Cool, eh?" I can't think that Tolkien believed that this was what happened. Not tragic or dramatic enough.

Another possibility - more believable given Tolkien's world - is that Tuor and Idril both "died" and their spirits came to Mandos. When however it came time for Tuor's spirit to leave Arda, he refused. Idril pled for him. Earendil came down and begged as well. Blah blah. Whether or not the Valar needed to consult with Eru or not, he was able to stay. Happy happy, joy joy.

Works a bit better, but I still don't buy it. If something that singular had happened - like Luthien in reverse - then Tolkien surely would have written about it in more detail.

Did Tolkien himself ever say anything on the matter? Is there anything in the later editions of HoME? Anything?

I'm usually not a stick in the mud about what I think of or how I interpret a passage of Tolkien. I'm usually very happy to be corrected on different subject about which others know more. But I can't seem to accept this one.

If anyone cares, I do have my own opinion about what the passage means. It has to do a lot with what I think the ultimate fate of the world will be, and the Dagor Dagorath and all that. So:

Caution!!!!! Complete Speculation Below!!!!

I came up with this when I was back in high school (which I guess is another caveat), using the framework of the end of Middle-earth to devise a solution.

Men's and Elves' spirits have different fates. Elves' are bound forever to the circles of the world. They are immortal, unless they are slain, etc.; but their spirits remain in the world, and are sometimes reincarnated apparently. In any case, Men's spirits do not remain here. They leave the world, and nobody knows where they go. Apparently, when the world ends, there will be a great battle (the Dagor Dagorath, which seems to be an Armageddon/Ragnarok/Rapture type thing). The spirits of the elves will take part in that. There is also something called the Second Music (posited against the First Music, which created the world), and who knows what the heck that is! The last clue is that Men are destined to play some unknown part in this battle.

So, how all this relates back to Tuor and Idril is this. They tried to sail through the Shadowy Seas, which were sprinkled with the Enchanted Isles. My theory is that they grounded on some rocks or an island in a storm (to give it extra drama ;) ). They made it ashore, wet and bedraggled, but together. And there they fell into an enchanted sleep. Neither Idril or Tuor aged or died, even though the years and eons continued to pass. When the world was changed after the Numenoreans invaded Valinor, the isle upon which they still sleep became situated on the Straight Path away from Mortal Lands, but not yet in the Undying Realm either. And there they lie, half way between the mortal and immortal lands (poetic, eh?), until the end comes, in which Tuor will fight with the eldar and have some really great and glorious thing he does which is really cool and saves the day.

Of course, there is a difficulty. Specifically, that for most of the Second Age, the island that I have them sleeping on is basically in plain sight. And the Numenoreans, being such great sailors, probably would have found them. And after the War of Wrath, it's implied that the Shadowy Seas aren't so shadowy anymore (no reason to keep the elves from Aman anymore). If this is so, it might also be concievable that the Enchanted Isles are also no longer enchanted. And the isles may even have been drowned along with Beleriand. And if that's so, then my whole theory goes to hell in a handbasket.

There are ways to fix it. One is that the Isles remained Enchanted, and anyone who passed through them became confused and uncertain of their direction, and/or storms were regular in that area, so that the Numenoreans avoided them. (Kind of lame though.) Another is that Ulmo came to the island on which they slept before or during the War of Wrath, and set enchantments around the island so that no one would disturb their rest or find them, or maybe even removed it from the normal flow of time or something silly like that. But all this reeks of damage control. (Of course, there are parts of Tolkien that reek in the same way, so maybe my theory has some good company, eh?)

Opinions? Comments? Answers? Insults?

Dave C-Q