The White Council

Re: Was Elrond being arrogant?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: I think that the story of Aragorn and Arwen was deliberately fashioned to be similar to the story of Beren and Luthien (at least superficailly). If it wasn't then it's a hell of a coincidence. Elrond is descended directly from Thingol, so he might have gotten some of his ancestor's posessiveness of daughters. Further, Arwen isn't just any elf-maid. She's Undomiel. She is to the Elves of the Third Age what Galadriel was to the Elves in Valinor and Luthien was to the Elves of Doriath. : Elrond made the decision to go back to Aman and live there forever. His choice did not bind his children, though. They also were offered the choice of remaining in Middle-earth through the Fourth Age and dying, or returning to Aman. When Arwen decided to remain in ME, it meant that she would die and her spirit would suffer the Doom of Men. Elrond and Arwen would never see each other again. : The idea that winning Arwen was a prime motivator for Aragorn's desire to become King is one of the things that people use to back up PJ's expansion of Arwen's role in the movies. I think that He's probably right (though not to the degree that I've heard).

I think Olorin's said it the best out of everyone. I think a lot of people were forgetting that Elrond and Arwen would never see each other again if Aragorn got his wish. Plus, that Arwen was the most beautiful elf alive (most likely, possible exception some of the elves in Valinor or Galadriel, as Gimli would maintain).

Anyway, Elrond always has struck me as a little pompous. He always seemed to me to treat Gandalf as an equal or even a little bit of an inferior, when it's obvious Gandalf and he aren't in the same world. Gandalf's so much superior to him, in both power and role in the downfall of Sauron. I've often wondered why Gandalf let him be that way (ie picking the members of the Nine Walkers). I suppose it's because the peoples of Middle-earth were supposed to do as much as they could by themselves.

Anyway, I think Elrond was being a little unfair and arrogant, but I think he had some reason for it, but not enough to justify all of it.

As for Aragorn, I'm guessing things wouldn't have changed that much. Because he would still have the desire to live with her in peace, and without destroying Sauron, it would be impossible. UNLESS he pulled a Beren and Luthien and went off to live by themselves and pretty much separate themselves from society, in which case things could have been screwed up.

Jon