The White Council

Re: Frodo and Sam

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : : : : Nicely put - that's how I see it too.

: : : But then again, why couldn't it be somewhat sexual?

: : : I agree Tolkien wrote it as simple love between two friends, a very deep love. But what I don't egt is why everybody makes this big bluster about "oh no no no, it's not sexual. How dare you? You ignorant boob!" kind of stuff.

: : : I personally feel that sex and love should be much more fluid and warm and open that it is in our neurotic and puritanical society (this applies to the world in general, but particularly to Britain and America (even moreso in America, IMO)). To me, the labels heterosexual and homosexual, straight and gay, etc., are silly, inaccurate, and in fact inadequate to sum up the range of emotions and feelings hidden inside human hearts.

: : : To me, LOTR would be a much poorer work if it had this huge caveat about how Frodo and Sam loved each other, but no way were they gay, nope, no way, they were hobbits hobbits if ya' know whot I mean eh? Eh! Yeah, ha ha. [Belch]

: : : I like it the way it is, unapologetic.

: : : Dave C-Q

: : I dunno, I have friends (or at least one) who would follow me into the same pinch and, in a similar situation with death just at hand, I could do the same thing with (lie in eachothers' arms etc.). However, many a girl can attest to our heterosexuality- I would in no circumstance consider a sexual relationship or falling in love with him- I have the woman of my dreams, but feel a very deep love for him, its just another sort of love (in the reenactment scene we do a lot of hugging and other physical contact- we have to trust eachother and like eachother to be able to fight safely). : : Also, do not forget that Tolkien was a soldier in WWI, he would know the intimate friendship between men (or hobbits) at the front with death lurking- making you very small and in need of comfort and protection in the arms of a friend. : : ;-) Neithan Turambar

: It's a curious feature of modern life that as we have become more tolerant (theoretically) of homosexuality, so we are far more likely than people of our grandparents' generation to assume that any intimate friendship between people of the same sex must be homosexual.

: I'm pretty sure that what Tolkien had in mind in showing the relationship of Sam and Frodo was an intimate friendship, rather than a homosexual relationship. On the other hand, I can see why a modern readership might think differently.

: Sean

No, sorry. I guess I wasn't clear.

I wasn't saying that F&S are gay. Or that any love between men or between women are necessarily sexual. Like some kind of Freudian obession or something (like any man that loves another man just just a supressed homosexual). Not what I meant to say at all. Sorry if it came out that way.

What I was basically trying to say is that I was glad Tolkien never made a big hetero bluster about the whole thing (I know he did answer a question once saying "no, they were gay" or "I didn't write them to be gay" or something). He left it alone. He wrote about their love and affection, and didn't try to justify it in modern contexts, or make it fit into an artificially narrow definition of love. He left it "as is." And I found (and continue to find) that refreshing.

The gist of what I was trying to say is that "love" is an incredibly huge and complex emotion, actually encompassing many similar emotions that overlap and mix and are expressed in many ways. On top of that, modern society has place two overriding definitions: homosexual and heterosexual. And I think that is a travesty. At best, I consider it inaccurate; in the worst cases, it can be insulting and bigoted.

Frodo and Sam love each other. I'd just like to leave it at that.

Dave C-Q