The White Council

Re: To sum up

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: I start a new thread because there is so much to answer to and : it all got very confusing.

: 1) What I debate is symbolism. I think we talk 'over each : others heads' here MM because you constantly make points like : "Grima is a WHITE man" and "Gandalf and Saruman both have WHITE : skin". You miss the point (if I may say so...oh well I do it : anyway :)...

No, I don't miss your point, but you are missing mine. Symbols come in all shapes and form, and the opposition of two characters (such as Gandalf the White and Saruman the White Hand) is an example of the symbology Tolkien employs. Two white towers grinning at each other across the Anduin is symbolic, too.

:...In Zulu stories all ppl are black, but evil is still called :'darkness' :)...

And I doubt Zulu symbology is limited to that one concept.

:...Black and white symbolism is not something that belongs : solely to Europe. Tolkien should be able to use it without : being called racist.

He should also be able to use it without being accused of using ONLY that kind of symbology.

: The point is: All elves and men of the west could have been : dark skinned and all orcs pale as swedes and still the : symbolism would be the same. Sauron would still be the dark : lord. The white tower of Gondor would still be set against the : black tower of Mordor.

And Saruman would still be the White Hand.

: You will note that I do not use examples like "Saurons skin is : black". This is because it holds no symbolic value.

Actually, it does, but it has nothing to do with Black Africans or the kinds of attitudes mis-informed people attribute to Tolkien concerning such people.

: 2) Yes Saurons emblem is a red eye (the evil eye..nothing less : ;). However Aragorn clearly put meaning into his sentence: : "Sauron doesn't use white"...

No, he was just stating the facts. It is you who have put meaning there, and this doesn't fall under the realm of applicability but simply of the reader reading something into the text which isn't there.

:...More importantly Sauron is the DARK lord. He is called the : BLACK one, the Black hand....

And the Lidless Eye, the Enemy, the Master, the Lord of Mordor, the Eye, the Red Eye, the Eye of Barad-dur, the Great Eye, the Nameless Eye, the Lord of the Ring, Ringmaker, and at least a dozen other names according to Robert Foster's THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO MIDDLE-EARTH. If Tolkien really wanted to beat this "black symbology" to death, he sure went about it the wrong way.

: 3) Saruman the white. White has great symbolic value in this : case. Saruman falls....and he throws aways the white (which : Gandalf think is clearly important)...

He's still the White Hand and Saruman the White in everyone's mind up until Gandalf casts him out of the order. But what does this symbology then imply for the Blue Wizards and Radagast, I wonder?

:...Gandalf becomes Gandalf the White (he was always : white-skinned mind you :)...

And Denethor remains dressed in white and his standard remains a white field. Gandalf doesn't strip him of the color white after Denethor fails.

:...Hama's thought were interesting. I had not pondered the fact : that after his treachery is told to all, noone calls Saruman : 'the white' anymore.

Except for all those people who call him "the White Hand", I suppose there is something significant here. Apparently you're not reading my replies and Hama's retractions.

: 4) "I am Gandalf the WHITE, but BLACK is mightier still" This : sentence alone prooves the importance and the symbolic value : Tolkien ascribes to these 'colors'...

It doesn't even come close to making such a proof. As I stated previously, all symbols in Tolkien are provided with a context. They have no meaning if they are plucked out their contexts the way you are doing here.

:...Why does Gandalf mean by black here? Let me tell you what : Gandalf does: he says BLACK = EVIL (strictly symbolic mind you!

[snip]

No, he's simply referring to Sauron, not to Evil (or EVIL). Nothing more.

: 5) Another Gandalf speech has him saying "I'll set silver : against BLACK" (concerning Shadowfax). Very notably Gandalf : says this as he rides agains the white hand (not against : Mordor).

Saruman had no black horse. Nor any black symbology.

Of course, what Gandalf was referring to was the Black Riders, not Saruman.

: 6) Your examples of Black being used with good holds no : symbolic value.

Oh, nonsense. You only say that because they discount your arguments. The black sails symbolized the Numenoreans better than anything else the Men of Middle-earth saw in the Second Age, and they symbolized the return of Numenorean power when Aragorn seized the black fleet at Pelargir.

You are trying unsuccessfully to argue that a universal symbolism runs throughout the book, and I have shown you are incorrect.

[big snip]

: One last matter. Aragorns black banner pops up all the time. : Again: what is the black banner meant to emphasise?...

Aragorn, unknown, untested, undeclared.

:...You mention the black banner all the time, but never what it : is meant to show all the more clearly, what gives Eomer hope : again on the Pellenor? Yes...a white tree.

On a black field, flying above a ship with black sails. A Numenorean ship carrying a Numenorean lord from the Sea.

Black is a powerful symbol in Tolkien's hand, and when he sets black against black is saying that Aragorn is restoring Middle-earth to what is right. Legolas' words concerning Aragorn's use of wraiths to overthrow Sauron's servants symbolizes how Aragorn has turned everything around upon Sauron.