The White Council

Re: To sum up

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: No, I don't miss your point, but you are missing mine. Symbols come in all shapes and form, and the opposition of two characters (such as Gandalf the White and Saruman the White Hand) is an example of the symbology Tolkien employs. Two white towers grinning at each other across the Anduin is symbolic, too.

Yet Tolkien makes no mention of this. Faramir and others ask if you serve the White or the dark tower.

: And I doubt Zulu symbology is limited to that one concept.

It certainly is not, but then again I have never said Tolkien is limited to one concept either.

: He should also be able to use it without being accused of using ONLY that kind of symbology.

I've gone through my posts and I fail to see that I've maid this claim.

: And Saruman would still be the White Hand.

And Saruman would not be Saruman the White anymore. The white hand is ghastly and pale. Tolkien makes sure to tell us that Saruman is corrupted.

: Actually, it does, but it has nothing to do with Black Africans or the kinds of attitudes mis-informed people attribute to Tolkien concerning such people.

I agree that it holds value actually. It emphasises his fall (his corruption), but I'm sure we can agree that Tolkien does not say black skin=evil :)

: No, he was just stating the facts. It is you who have put meaning there, and this doesn't fall under the realm of applicability but simply of the reader reading something into the text which isn't there.

Maybe or maybe you just fail to see the meaning.

: And the Lidless Eye, the Enemy, the Master, the Lord of Mordor, the Eye, the Red Eye, the Eye of Barad-dur, the Great Eye, the Nameless Eye, the Lord of the Ring, Ringmaker, and at least a dozen other names according to Robert Foster's THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO MIDDLE-EARTH. If Tolkien really wanted to beat this "black symbology" to death, he sure went about it the wrong way.

Yes yes yes, BUT he is not called the White One, the White enemy etc etc. Don't you see how Sarumans 'white hand' is a futile attempt. It isn't white. Saruman is corrupted beyond this. His hand is ghastly pale :)He tries to represent something new, but Gandalf has him: Isengard is but a pitiful copy of Mordor.

: He's still the White Hand and Saruman the White in everyone's mind up until Gandalf casts him out of the order. But what does this symbology then imply for the Blue Wizards and Radagast, I wonder?

You make unvalid assumptions. Tell me how you know he is Saruman the White in 'everybodys mind' please :) The blue wizards and Radagast are hardly mentioned in the story, but there are no Black Istari if that's what you imply (I know you know :) On the contrary Gandalf reveals himself as Gandalf the White to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas in Fangorn BEFORE Saruman is cast out of the order of the wizards.

: And Denethor remains dressed in white and his standard remains a white field. Gandalf doesn't strip him of the color white after Denethor fails.

Denethor doesn't deserve to be stripped of anything. You see, Denethor does not fall. This is important. He goes mad, but unlike Saruman he denies Sauron until the end (this is the great tragedy of Denethor).

: Except for all those people who call him "the White Hand", I suppose there is something significant here. Apparently you're not reading my replies and Hama's retractions.

Surely you can't put the same meaning in the white hand. Point is he is not Saruman the White anymore and Gandalf says as much in Fangorn.

: It doesn't even come close to making such a proof. As I stated previously, all symbols in Tolkien are provided with a context. They have no meaning if they are plucked out their contexts the way you are doing here.

On the contrary. Gandalf makes statements about evils progress before he makes this statement.

: No, he's simply referring to Sauron, not to Evil (or EVIL). Nothing more.

An assumption again MM and one I cannot understand why you make. For Sauron IS evil. Do you argument for the sake of argument. Gandalf is the White and he clearly set himself against evil.

: Saruman had no black horse. Nor any black symbology.

So why does Gandalf say this? :)

: Of course, what Gandalf was referring to was the Black Riders, not Saruman.

An assumption that fails. Gandalf says this ere he rides to battle with Saruman.

: Oh, nonsense. You only say that because they discount your arguments. The black sails symbolized the Numenoreans better than anything else the Men of Middle-earth saw in the Second Age, and they symbolized the return of Numenorean power when Aragorn seized the black fleet at Pelargir.

They certainly do not discount my arguments. I think you should ponder this statement of yours. The black fleet strike fear into the hearts of the armies of the west until they see the White tree. The white tree is the symbol of the return of Numenorean power and I think you know it well. Why the emphasis on the sapling Gandalf and Aragorn finds?!

: You are trying unsuccessfully to argue that a universal symbolism runs throughout the book, and I have shown you are incorrect.

"I have shown that you are incorrect" What is that? The fall of the hammer :) A rather large claim I think. Let's not make it a pissing contest.

Seriously I have given many (and yet only a very few of the available material) examples of Black being used with evil and white with good. : [big snip]

: Aragorn, unknown, untested, undeclared.

no..."seven stars, seven stones and....."

: On a black field, flying above a ship with black sails. A Numenorean ship carrying a Numenorean lord from the Sea.

Again...the black fleet strikes fear into the armies of Gondor, but when they see Aragorn and the white tree.....

: Black is a powerful symbol in Tolkien's hand, and when he sets black against black is saying that Aragorn is restoring Middle-earth to what is right. Legolas' words concerning Aragorn's use of wraiths to overthrow Sauron's servants symbolizes how Aragorn has turned everything around upon Sauron.

He sets black against black? He sets White against Black throughout the book!