The White Council

Re: To sum up

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : No, I don't miss your point, but you are missing mine. : : Symbols come in all shapes and form, and the opposition of : : two characters (such as Gandalf the White and Saruman the : : White Hand) is an example of the symbology Tolkien employs. : : Two white towers grinning at each other across the Anduin is : : symbolic, too.

: Yet Tolkien makes no mention of this. Faramir and others ask if : you serve the White or the dark tower.

   'But where else will you direct me?' said Frodo.  'You cannot   yourself, you say, guide me to the mountains, nor over them.   But over the mountains I am bound, by solemn undertaking to   the Council, to find a way or perish in the seeking.  And if   I turn back, refusing the road in its bitter end, where then   shall I go among Elves or Men?  Would you have me come to   Gondor with this Thing, the Thing that drove your brother mad   with desire?  What spell would it work in Minas Tirith?  Shall   there be two cities of Minas Morgul, grinning at each other   across a dead land filled with rottenness?'   (from "The Forbidden Pool" in THE TWO TOWERS) 

: : And I doubt Zulu symbology is limited to that one concept.

: It certainly is not, but then again I have never said Tolkien : is limited to one concept either.

You have been arguing that black = evil and white = good throughout Tolkien, even as I have repeatedly shown this is not so.

: : And Saruman would still be the White Hand.

: And Saruman would not be Saruman the White anymore. The white : hand is ghastly and pale. Tolkien makes sure to tell us that : Saruman is corrupted.

Saruman remains Saruman the White until Gandalf casts him out of the Order. He is known as Saruman the White to everyone, and everyone who sees Gandalf in his new guise as Gandalf the White wonders if it is not Saruman they behold until they are told better.

: : And the Lidless Eye, the Enemy, the Master, the Lord of : : Mordor, the Eye, the Red Eye, the Eye of Barad-dur, the Great : : Eye, the Nameless Eye, the Lord of the Ring, Ringmaker, and : : at least a dozen other names according to Robert Foster's THE : : COMPLETE GUIDE TO MIDDLE-EARTH. If Tolkien really wanted to : : beat this "black symbology" to death, he sure went about it : : the wrong way.

: Yes yes yes, BUT he is not called the White One, the White : enemy etc etc. Don't you see how Sarumans 'white hand' is a : futile attempt. It isn't white. Saruman is corrupted beyond : this. His hand is ghastly pale :)He tries to represent : something new, but Gandalf has him: Isengard is but a pitiful : copy of Mordor.

Saruman's white hand most certainly is white, and Gandalf the Grey cannot be good by your logic. You need to stop and think about the fact that you have virtually excluded the majority of the book in order to make your argument work for yourself.

: : He's still the White Hand and Saruman the White in everyone's : : mind up until Gandalf casts him out of the order. But what : : does this symbology then imply for the Blue Wizards and : : Radagast, I wonder?

: You make unvalid assumptions.

I assume nothing, and if you had read what I posted below, referring to the various cases where people wonder if Gandalf is Saruman, you'd know what I was talking about.

: : And Denethor remains dressed in white and his standard : : remains a white field. Gandalf doesn't strip him of the : : color white after Denethor fails.

: Denethor doesn't deserve to be stripped of anything. You see, : Denethor does not fall. This is important. He goes mad, but : unlike Saruman he denies Sauron until the end (this is the : great tragedy of Denethor).

   Some reviewers have called the whole thing simple-minded, just   a plain fight between Good and Evil, with all the good just   good, and he bad just bad.  Pardonable, perhaps (though at   least Boromir has been overlooked) in people in a hurry, and   with only a fragment to read, and, of course, without the   earlier written but unpublished Elvish histories.  But the   Elves are not wholly good or in the right.  Not so   much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or   without his assistance they were 'embalmers'.  They wanted to   have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical   Middlea-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps   because they there had the advantages of a superior caste),   and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth,   keep it as a pleasuance, even largely a desert, where they   could be 'artists' -- and they were overburdended with sadness   and nostalgic regret.  In their way the Men of Gondor were   similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their   tombs.  But in any case this is a tale about a war, and if war   is allowed (at least as a topic and a setting) it is not much   good complaining that all the people on one side are against   those on the other.  Not that I have made even this issue quite   so simple: there are Saruman, and Denethor, and Boromir; and   there are treacheries and strife even among the Orcs.   (From Letter 154, THE LETTERS OF J.R.R. TOLKIEN) 

   Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his   failure, and his distrust of Faramir.  It had become for him a   prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was,   against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and   was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than   because he was ruthless and wicked.  Denethor despised lesser   men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and   the allies of Mordor.  If he had survived as a victor, even   without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride   towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment   he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have   been cruel and vengeful.  He had become a 'political' leader:   sc. Gondor against the rest.   (From Letter 183) 

   So I feel that the fiddle-faddle in reviews, and correspondence   about them, as to whether my 'good people' were kind and   merciful and gave quarter (in fact they do), or not, is quite   beside the point.  Some critics seem determined to represent   me as a simple-minded adolescent, inspired with, say, a   With-the-flag-to-Pretoria spirit, and willfully distort what   is said in my tale.  I have not that spirit, and it dioes not   appear in the story.  The figure of Denethor alone is enough   to show this; but I have not made any of the peoples on the   'right' side, Hobbits, Rohirrim, Men of Dale or Gondor, any   better than men have been or are, or can be  Mine is not   an 'imaginary' world, but an imaginary historical moment on   'Middle-earth' -- which is our habitation.   (Ibid.) 

: : Except for all those people who call him "the White Hand", I : : suppose there is something significant here. Apparently : : you're not reading my replies and Hama's retractions.

: Surely you can't put the same meaning in the white hand. Point : is he is not Saruman the White anymore and Gandalf says as much : in Fangorn.

Point is, he remains Saruman the White until Gandalf casts him out of the order. White is white, and Saruman is still clearly associated with white in the minds of all until Gandalf deals with him.

: : No, he's simply referring to Sauron, not to Evil (or EVIL). : : Nothing more.

: An assumption again MM and one I cannot understand why you : make.

I do not make assumptions. There is no need to.

: : Oh, nonsense. You only say that because they discount your : : arguments. The black sails symbolized the Numenoreans better : : than anything else the Men of Middle-earth saw in the Second : : Age, and they symbolized the return of Numenorean power when : : Aragorn seized the black fleet at Pelargir.

: They certainly do not discount my arguments. I think you should : ponder this statement of yours. The black fleet strike fear : into the hearts of the armies of the west until they see the : White tree. The white tree is the symbol of the return of : Numenorean power and I think you know it well. Why the emphasis : on the sapling Gandalf and Aragorn finds?!

You need to read up on the Numenoreans and why black was important to them. The Guards of the Tower wore black and silver. Sable was a royal color.