The White Council

Re: Speaking of Skin Color

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : : : If one assumes that evolution has some validity then the dark/black/evil and light/white/good interpretations that are well nigh universal are easily explicable.

: : : : : : Disclaimer: the shade white is used as an exemplar of light, and black as an exemplar of dark (absence of light). This has nothing to do with human skin colour - indeed most sub-Saharan African cultures have a similar light=good, darkness=evil equation. In Zulu folklore witches ride around on the backs of hyenas in the hours of darkness.

: : : : : : Looking back at our ancestors as smallish tree-dwelling creatures with relatively poor dentition (compared with a carnivore) and very reliant on the sense of sight (good colour vision, not so good low-light vision) it is of no surprise that the hours of darkness held terror for them. Night is the time of leopards and other tree-friendly hunters, whose senses were far more useful in low light conditions. Also, deprived by darkness of the ability to see well, the ancestral primate was much more likely to fall from the trees if alarmed by the approach of a predator. : : : : : : This, it seems to me, is at the root of human psychological unease about darkness and why dark/black became associated with evil.

: : : : : : This symbolism was reinforced and codified for Western Thought through the Jewish absorption of elements of Zoroastrian religion from the Persians in the period after the Babylonian captivity. Subsequently these influences entered Christian and arguably Muslim symbolism. : : : : : : Essentially Zoroastrianism viewed the universe as a battleground between the forces of good=light under Ahura Mazda (Ormuzd) and the forces of evil=darkness under the satanic Angra Mainyu (Ahriman). Indeed fire as a source of light was sacred, and so was the sun as the prime example of Ahura Mazda's power and benificence.

: : : : : Nop need to validate evolution to make the point about why men fear the dark. Even today a rogue lion or tiger will snatch a lone human if driven by hunger and oppurtunity. Your point does validate why men formed clans and tribes and cities, though it may have been more to protect from other men than to protect against animal attack. But I suspect that both had a hand in the concept of grouping together for defense.

: : : : : The Bible doesn't seem to teach or mention any "fear" of the dark. It makes mention that thieves and harlots use the cover of darkeness to accompliosh their deeds, and thus symbolically calls on us to come out of the darkenss of sin. If the Bible taught that we should fear darkness it would undermine God's ability to protect us from evil - even at night. At the same time there is no denying that elements of non-Christian cults have made inroads into the church. Christmas and Easter being two examples where Zoroastrianism has been detected - ala Christmas trees and holly and decorations and Easter bunnies (fertility rites). As for Judaism, I don't have the expertise to discuss any influences, unless one is suggesting Gilgamesh and the flood story. But who borrowed from who is still debated.

: : : : : But in the end we are left with light=good, knowledge, life etc. and dark=evil, sin, death etc.

: : : : It seems that the Jewish People were, in general, very pro-Persian. Understandably, they released the Jews from captivity in Babylon, had a policy of complete freedom of worship for subject peoples, and were the only other (more or less) monotheistic culture in the known world.

: : : : Before the Jews came under Persian influence it seems that both Satan and Hell were regarded rather differently. Persian Zoroastrian influence seems to have changed the Jewish Hell (Sheol) from a rather dismal place (like classical Hades) into one of personal torment where sinners were actively punished. Zoroastrian influence might also be detected in the evolution of the concept of angels.

: : : : I wrote the original post because of the debate (I haven't read it all) where Michael seems to be dismissing Dark-Light Good-Evil symbolism from Tolkien's work. I just wanted to underline this symbolism's virtual universality.

: : : : I may have been mistaken in my reading of Michael's argument, if he is saying that this symbolism is imperfect, and not applicable in every case, in Tolkien's work then I would agree. However, to say that the dark=evil light=good equation does not appear (quite prominently) in Tolkien is, I think, unsupportable.

: : : No, what Michael said was:

: : : "Color symbolism is one of the points argued most frequently by those who raise the racism issue, and black does not, never has, and never will represent evil in THE LORD OF THE RINGS."

: : : So the issue is not Dark=Evil, but Black=Evil, a point I am still considering. I backed out of the debate below when things started to get heated, in order to have a good hard think about this.

: : : Cheers,

: : : Hama.

: : : PS. The primeval fear of darkness is a nice theory which I rather like. There is also another that fits neatly in with it, concerning the fear of spiders and snakes, also an arboreal danger, that some people have, an instinctive response buried in one of the more primitive areas of the brain.

: : Chimpanzees also have a strong fear response to snakes (actually anything snake shaped if it wriggles) and also the smell of fungi (even harmless ones) I guess we might also if our sense of smell were not so dulled. I don't know but I would imagine the same applies to spiders. Tolkien certainly worked on that primeval response to good dramatic effect.

: : I cannot really agree with the statement you quote. I think darkness and black, and light and white are indistinguishable in regards to symbolism. The colours (though not true colours) of white and black are abstractions of the natures of light and darkness. In regard to good and evil they are then symbols of symbols. Though at one remove, I think if you admit that darkness symbolises evil then that also holds true for black, and vice-versa for light.

: Like I've posted before. Tolkien very often uses Black/dark/shadow with evil and light/white with good.

: : This, of course, has no relation to human skin colour. After all "White" people are really yellow-pink and "Black" people are really brown. There is no symbolism in Tolkien (or elsewhere) using yellow-pink and brown as moral opposites.

: : As to skin colour in Tolkien's work, I always point out that the majority of hobbits, who are the ultimate hero-folk of Middle Earth, are described as being brown of skin.

: I agree completely Martin. As far as skin colour goes i think everyone in this forum agrees. There is no symbolism in skin colours.

I agree, no symbolism in skin color. Although I haven't counted them, I don't recall many references to skin color in the LOTR. The statement that Hobbits had "clever brown fingers" is in the Hobbit, I believe. There are plenty of references to the color of hair, clothing and objects in LOTR. However,when Tolkien does describe a person's physical appearence, he often uses the terms pale, fair, dark, sallow etc. which are open to reader interpretation. In those cases where he directly refers to skin color, I believe he usually follows the "color" with the word "skin".